Quoting Post Archived Topic: It will not be bumped to the top of the forum. Topic Faith vs. Logic. Membername   Not a member? Sign Up Free (takes 20 seconds) Password   Forgotten your password? Post Font: Verdana Arial Black Georgia Comic Sans Impact   Size: Tiny Normal Big Huge   Color: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Black [ Check Spelling ] [ Post Preview ] [ LiveTags ] Quote: from [m]matto[/m] at 8:59 pm on Aug. 27, 2008[quote]I do not believe the stories in the bible literally happened.  I'm also not Christian, though I have read many portions of the bible.  The interpretation of the stories is what makes someone truly Christian, or Jewish.  Blindly following them will cause humanity to go back to the dark ages.[/quote] FAQ Keyword Search: Post Options Favorites Manager Notify me of new replies to this topic by email Notify me of new replies to this topic by private message Original Post I never forget Posted at 8:54 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Can you actually have faith, and actually be logical? The bible has been proven wrong on several occasions...usually through science of a sort. Not exclusively, the evolution theory. History, and logic. Take for example.... The story of Adam and Eve is a critical part of the bible, if you don't believe this story then you can't honestly be a Christian. If you Do believe the story though....well I hope you don't ever have kids, or work with children. So God creates Adam, and some animals for him to do whatever in the garden of Eden. Then I guess Adam wants to get laid, or feels alone so God makes eve out of his rib. Then fruit from the tree of knowledge which is forbidden(Because god wanted humans to be stupid obviously, forget free will and all that fun stuff you talk about) gets eaten. As punishment for disobeying god they are cast out of the garden of eden to be in a world of sin, and fun stuff. Now we(humans) are in this world of sin, and joy, because of what Adam and Eve did. Because we live outside of the Garden of eden that means we continue to bear the punishment of Adam and Eve(simple logic). In the bible I can't remember which exact verse but it says "the sons will not eat thy father's sour grapes"(or something like that) which means we aren't to be held responsible for what our parents do. Jesus came and died for our sins right? We're in a world full of sin, so and it's impossible for us to not sin apparently. That means we actually are punished for what our parents do. Which means the bible is wrong, and If I remember right the "sour grapes" part is from the new testament. So that would mean the new testament is wrong. Though if we actually aren't punished for what our parents do that means the story of Adam and Eve is wrong. If the story of Adam and Eve is wrong, then that means Jesus died for nothing. Then that means both the new testament and the old is wrong. Think about it. Can you be a logical person, and have faith in Christianity? Now then....to the vodka bottle! edit: okay I lied back to the vodka bottle.

Replies PewPew Posted at 8:05 am on Aug. 28, 2008 Archeology actually backs up some of the Bible's accounts of historical events, especially those involving the Roman Empire and the history of the city of Jerusalem, among others. You have me interested. examples? aprilten Posted at 5:48 am on Aug. 28, 2008 Faith and logic do not live together. exceedinglyrare Posted at 4:38 am on Aug. 28, 2008 Quote: from I never forget at 11:54 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 The story of Adam and Eve is a critical part of the bible, if you don't believe this story then you can't honestly be a Christian. According to whom? You? Ha. King Kong Posted at 2:40 am on Aug. 28, 2008 Yes you can Shaknbake Posted at 10:43 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from I never forget at 8:54 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Can you actually have faith, and actually be logical? Yes. Choosing to have faith is a value judgment, and logic is best kept away from value judgments. Once can balance faith with logic. The bible has been proven wrong on several occasions...usually through science of a sort. Not exclusively, the evolution theory. History, and logic. You can't really prove the Bible wrong, because the Bible doesn't make one, unified, falsifiable statement. Any false claims in the Bible, or Bible stories that are impossible (Noah's Ark comes to mind) can be explained away as metaphorical or non-literal. So that's that. holysaiyan1 Posted at 10:42 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from I never forget at 1:05 am on Aug. 28, 2008 The verse does exist. In an argument with some Christian forums, a few of them posted it. My quote is more than likely off, but they moral of it isn't. I think you put it into the link you posted. In the spirit of argument, we'll assume that you were using some weird version of the Bible, and I posted the conventional translation.  Okay.  My point still stands.  God does not punish children for their fathers' sin, but He may punish fathers for their own sins through their children. If we're punished for our own sins, then why wouldn't we be allowed into the garden of eden? You say, yeah so what's done is done? Well then that just proves that we are infact punished for what our fathers do. Okay, we are getting into a concept called "original sin".  Original sin is not a "sin" so much as a "tendency towards sin".  Before the Fall of Man, man did not have evil in his heart.  After the Fall, humans had (and have) a natural tendency to not trust in God and to want to rebel against God and do our own thing.  There is a distinction between "being punished for Adam's sin" and "being punished because we're sinners, just as Adam sinned). I don't take anything from the bible literally. Though if you read it like it is, you will find a lot of fault. Citations, plz. If it's god's word, why would it not be literal? Why would god lie? By nature, God can NOT lie.  I can't claim to speak for God, but I can ask you if you've ever heard of a parable?  A story that illustrates a point?  Being omnipotent and omniscient, it's safe to assume that God is a master at using parables and metaphors to further illustrate a point. Because it's been re written, and given different interpretations numerous amounts of times? While you are correct in saying that the Bible has been translated over time, the Message is the same.  Sure, there may be some minor errors such as transpositions, mistranslations, and the like, but the Bible is still God's Word.   The Bible you see today is flawed because anything humans do is imperfect.  As some say, the Bible is God's perfect Word through man's imperfect translation.  Just because the language is mangled in parts, that does not mean that the Message is not inspired by God.   You can't pick and choose what's true, and what's false from a religious text if you're going to have "faith" in a religion. You're missing the point again.  I am not saying anything in the Bible is "false".  In fact, you're the only one here saying stuff in the Bible is false.  Something can be true, and yet not really have happened.  You are claiming the Genesis story is a literal, blow-for-blow account.  I am saying it is probably a metaphorical story, an allegorical story. Were there not humans who apparently went to heaven before the coming of jesus, and before the 10 commandments? No. If you simply look to a holy text for a lesson on how to be a good person, then you aren't a "true believer". Considering that you're the non-Christian here, kindly refrain from lecturing me on what is and what isn't "truly believing".   I never forget Posted at 10:05 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 The verse does exist. In an argument with some Christian forums, a few of them posted it. My quote is more than likely off, but they moral of it isn't. I think you put it into the link you posted. If we're punished for our own sins, then why wouldn't we be allowed into the garden of eden? You say, yeah so what's done is done? Well then that just proves that we are infact punished for what our fathers do. I don't take anything from the bible literally. Though if you read it like it is, you will find a lot of fault. If it's god's word, why would it not be literal? Why would god lie? Because it's been re written, and given different interpretations numerous amounts of times? You can't pick and choose what's true, and what's false from a religious text if you're going to have "faith" in a religion. Were there not humans who apparently went to heaven before the coming of jesus, and before the 10 commandments? If you simply look to a holy text for a lesson on how to be a good person, then you aren't a "true believer". holysaiyan1 Posted at 9:34 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from I never forget at 11:54 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Can you actually have faith, and actually be logical? The bible has been proven wrong on several occasions...usually through science of a sort. Not exclusively, the evolution theory. History, and logic. History?  Au contraire, mon frère.  Archeology actually backs up some of the Bible's accounts of historical events, especially those involving the Roman Empire and the history of the city of Jerusalem, among others.   Take for example.... The story of Adam and Eve is a critical part of the bible, if you don't believe this story then you can't honestly be a Christian. If you Do believe the story though....well I hope you don't ever have kids, or work with children. Oh, this should be good. So God creates Adam, and some animals for him to do whatever in the garden of Eden. Then I guess Adam wants to get laid, or feels alone so God makes eve out of his rib. Try being the only of your kind, and tell me that you don't wish God made someone to talk to.  Your attempt at flippancy is old and busted.  Besides, it was God's decision to make Eve, not Adam's. Then fruit from the tree of knowledge which is forbidden(Because god wanted humans to be stupid obviously, forget free will and all that fun stuff you talk about) False.  The full name of the tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  According to the story, before eating the fruit, humans only knew good.  Your attempt at anti-authoritarianism is laughable. gets eaten. As punishment for disobeying god they are cast out of the garden of eden to be in a world of sin, For good reason.  They lied to God and disobeyed him. Should there not be consequences to our actions? and fun stuff. Now we(humans) are in this world of sin, and joy, because of what Adam and Eve did. Yeah, so?  It's over and done with, there's no use whinging about it.   Did you ever consider that the story of Adam and Eve is NOT literal, but a metaphor?  Most Biblical scholars believe that the story of creation is metaphorical, since there are two creation stories in Genesis, not one.  However, if we assume that the creation stories are metaphors intended to teach us something, not a blow-for-blow historical account, consistency is maintained.  This assumption that a story in the Bible is not a new one; there are many parables in the Bible that did not happen, but are there to teach us a lesson. Because we live outside of the Garden of eden that means we continue to bear the punishment of Adam and Eve(simple logic). In the bible I can't remember which exact verse but it says "the sons will not eat thy father's sour grapes"(or something like that) which means we aren't to be held responsible for what our parents do. No such verse exists.  We can make up Biblical-sounding verses all night, or we can stick to the facts.   I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing loving kindness to thousands [of generations] to those who love Me and keep My commandments (Deuteronomy 5:9-10). But the loving kindness of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to those who keep His covenant and remember His precepts to do them. (Psalm 103:17-18) God may punish fathers THROUGH their children, and that punishment may be that the children become rebellious.   Jesus came and died for our sins right? We're in a world full of sin, so and it's impossible for us to not sin apparently. That means we actually are punished for what our parents do. Missing the point on purpose.  It is human nature to sin.  We, by all rights, should be punished for what WE do, but if we choose to accept it, Jesus took the punishment in our stead, and we don't have to face that punishment. Which means the bible is wrong, and If I remember right the "sour grapes" part is from the new testament. So that would mean the new testament is wrong. Even if that verse existed, no. Though if we actually aren't punished for what our parents do that means the story of Adam and Eve is wrong. If the story of Adam and Eve is wrong, then that means Jesus died for nothing. Then that means both the new testament and the old is wrong. You're building flawed premises upon flawed premises.  This is a convoluted mindfuck that makes no logical sense. Think about it. Can you be a logical person, and have faith in Christianity? Now then....to the vodka bottle! edit: okay I lied back to the vodka bottle. All this is assuming that you yourself were logical.  Since your entire argument depends on the incorrect assumption that God punishes children for their fathers' sins, and your erroneous evidence... This site may clear up your misunderstandings regarding "sins of the father".  It's better sourced than your chain of illogic, anyway. I never forget Posted at 9:10 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from neverjeeps at 9:04 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from I never forget at 8:58 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from neverjeeps at 8:56 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Adam and Eve's story's moral is what is important. The story is just some made up shit.    don't listen to talking animals? yeah I learned that the hard way the first time I did acid. wow you're thick there's a lot of "morals" from that story. Like don't disobey God, disobedience in general is bad, women are the corruption of men, blah blah blah. I'm drunk, but I'm not about to insult you for being a bitch. neverjeeps Posted at 9:04 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from I never forget at 8:58 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from neverjeeps at 8:56 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Adam and Eve's story's moral is what is important. The story is just some made up shit. don't listen to talking animals? yeah I learned that the hard way the first time I did acid. wow you're thick ErnestoTheTrippyOne Posted at 9:02 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from Googoie at 8:56 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 I believe, but I don't fully trust, word-for-word, the translations of the bible. Yeah, this is basically what I think. I think the Bible is either bullshit, mistranslated, or all metaphors and bed-time stories. There might be a God, but I don't believe the Bible is really the truth. Just morals. Like a guidebook for life, I guess. Sometimes I look to the Bible for simple life lessons. I'm an Atheist, but that doesn't mean the Bible is all bad. I never forget Posted at 9:01 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 8:59 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Yous should read Critique of Pure Logic by Kant - It really put things into perspective for me. I haven't heard of that book. I'll look for it if I remember in the morning. Stand Up Posted at 8:59 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Yous should read Critique of Pure Reason by Kant - It really put things into perspective for me. matto Posted at 8:59 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 I do not believe the stories in the bible literally happened.  I'm also not Christian, though I have read many portions of the bible.  The interpretation of the stories is what makes someone truly Christian, or Jewish.  Blindly following them will cause humanity to go back to the dark ages. I never forget Posted at 8:58 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Quote: from neverjeeps at 8:56 pm on Aug. 27, 2008 Adam and Eve's story's moral is what is important. The story is just some made up shit. don't listen to talking animals? yeah I learned that the hard way the first time I did acid. Most recent 15 of 18 previous replies displayed.