Quoting Post Archived Topic: It will not be bumped to the top of the forum. Topic Anti-abortionists are incredibly dumb. Membername   Not a member? Sign Up Free (takes 20 seconds) Password   Forgotten your password? Post Font: Verdana Arial Black Georgia Comic Sans Impact   Size: Tiny Normal Big Huge   Color: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Black [ Check Spelling ] [ Post Preview ] [ LiveTags ] Quote: from [m]Shaknbake[/m] at 9:11 am on Dec. 31, 2008[quote]Quote: from [m]Mediocre[/m] at 12:10 pm on Dec. 30, 2008[quote]- It likely violates the will of the infant. (Legally abortable fetuses are biologically incapable of having a will.)[/quote] At what age does an infant have a will? [quote]- It's likely an unchosen tragedy for the infant's loved ones. (Abortions are chosen by the aborter, so no tragedy is forced upon them.)[/quote] Because the mother is the only one that could love the fetus of course. What if the baby-daddy is vehemently opposed, considers the child a child and [wants it?] The abortion is then an unchosen tragedy. If the father isn't important enough for your little scenario, what if every member of both families save the mother-to-be feels that way?[/quote] FAQ Keyword Search: Post Options Favorites Manager Notify me of new replies to this topic by email Notify me of new replies to this topic by private message Original Post Mediocre Posted at 12:10 pm on Dec. 30, 2008 I've pretty much disowned my sister for her "pro-life" BS. Even after I beat her arguments into a fine dust and left her sputtering and grasping for straws, she continued to insist that "murdering an innocent baby" (as is the mantra of her illiterate crowd) is evil "just because" and stopping it is totally worth forcing thousands of teenage, unready mothers to give birth to their rape-babies. "It's murder. You're killing a child!" How could anyone think that's a reasonable point? It's pure semantics. The words we use to describe abortion -- whether they be "terminating a fetus" or "slaughtering an innocent" -- are not relevant to its moral status. To prove abortion wrong, you need to show it violates a shared moral axiom. For instance, killing an actual infant can rationally be considered wrong for two reasons: - It likely violates the will of the infant. (Legally abortable fetuses are biologically incapable of having a will.) - It's likely an unchosen tragedy for the infant's loved ones. (Abortions are chosen by the aborter, so no tragedy is forced upon them.) K?

Replies osmoticdespair Posted at 9:51 am on Jan. 10, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 4:31 pm on Jan. 10, 2009 And you consider that zygote "alive"? Removing it from the body would be --according to you-- murder? Merely being alive wouldn't make it murder. I believe it is a living human organism and that to kill it would be homicide, whether homicide is murder depends on the circumstances - it is generally wrong though, whether it is "murder" or not. Event Horizon Posted at 8:31 am on Jan. 10, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 6:24 am on Jan. 10, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 11:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 1:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 A fetus is a unique organism - a human being. That it is not yet independent or sentient (in early stages) is irrelevant.    Do you then consider the sperm-egg zygote to be a unique individual? Where do you draw the line? The time at which it becomes a unique organism is in my mind when the nuclei fuse, some people think its when the cells fuse before the nuclei, there is a very short time between those two events so its of little practical consequence. I can hear both arguments. And you consider that zygote "alive"? Removing it from the body would be --according to you-- murder? osmoticdespair Posted at 3:24 am on Jan. 10, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 11:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 1:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 A fetus is a unique organism - a human being. That it is not yet independent or sentient (in early stages) is irrelevant. Do you then consider the sperm-egg zygote to be a unique individual? Where do you draw the line? The time at which it becomes a unique organism is in my mind when the nuclei fuse, some people think its when the cells fuse before the nuclei, there is a very short time between those two events so its of little practical consequence. I can hear both arguments. Event Horizon Posted at 3:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 1:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 A fetus is a unique organism - a human being. That it is not yet independent or sentient (in early stages) is irrelevant. Do you then consider the sperm-egg zygote to be a unique individual? Where do you draw the line? amber1991 Posted at 2:27 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 I'm pro choice. osmoticdespair Posted at 10:34 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 5:18 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 11:51 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 4:30 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 4:45 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Technically apart from stem cells regular cells fully differentiated do not reproduce.       But yes, congrats for recognizing skin and muscle cells as alive.   And so if I cut off someone's skin, am I therefore committing murder? No because someone's skin is not a human being. It is merely an organ (or if you only cut off a bit, merely a tissue). But it is living is it not? What makes the fetus any different? It can't survive outside of the body, it has no thoughts of ANY KIND, it can't feel --in the sense that it can't register feelings and actually "feel" them. [especially in the first trimester when there isn't even a developed nervous system] I know it isn't quite the same, comparing a fetus to a piece of skin, I'm just saying that simply because that particular group of developing cells fulfill the requirements of "life" does not mean that it is a "living child", it just means that it is biotic. A fetus is a unique organism - a human being. That it is not yet independent or sentient (in early stages) is irrelevant. Event Horizon Posted at 9:21 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from King kong at 12:18 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 5:15 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from King kong at 12:04 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 abortion is a bigger moral dilemma than you think.   Yes, pro choice will allow the woman to get rid of a baby they got by rape, or a teenager can have one if they are not ready for a baby. The mothers life may be at risk.       One could argue the teenager could have used other means of comprehension . If every woman could get a abortion if they choose, they may treat it as a another means of comprehension.      contraceptive* I'm playing poker at the same time, cut me some slack Tried to be as easy as I could. I figured you might change it before someone chewed you out for it. I swear people sit on this thing and wait for people to make spelling mistakes and then JUMP up and call them on it.... exceedinglyrare Posted at 9:18 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 12:15 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from King kong at 12:04 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 abortion is a bigger moral dilemma than you think.    Yes, pro choice will allow the woman to get rid of a baby they got by rape, or a teenager can have one if they are not ready for a baby. The mothers life may be at risk.  One could argue the teenager could have used other means of comprehension . If every woman could get a abortion if they choose, they may treat it as a another means of comprehension.     contraceptive* Now that's a hilarious typo. Event Horizon Posted at 9:18 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 11:51 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 4:30 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 4:45 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Technically apart from stem cells regular cells fully differentiated do not reproduce.   But yes, congrats for recognizing skin and muscle cells as alive.    And so if I cut off someone's skin, am I therefore committing murder? No because someone's skin is not a human being. It is merely an organ (or if you only cut off a bit, merely a tissue). But it is living is it not? What makes the fetus any different? It can't survive outside of the body, it has no thoughts of ANY KIND, it can't feel --in the sense that it can't register feelings and actually "feel" them. [especially in the first trimester when there isn't even a developed nervous system] I know it isn't quite the same, comparing a fetus to a piece of skin, I'm just saying that simply because that particular group of developing cells fulfill the requirements of "life" does not mean that it is a "living child", it just means that it is biotic. King Kong Posted at 9:18 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 5:15 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from King kong at 12:04 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 abortion is a bigger moral dilemma than you think.    Yes, pro choice will allow the woman to get rid of a baby they got by rape, or a teenager can have one if they are not ready for a baby. The mothers life may be at risk.  One could argue the teenager could have used other means of comprehension . If every woman could get a abortion if they choose, they may treat it as a another means of comprehension.     contraceptive* I'm playing poker at the same time, cut me some slack Event Horizon Posted at 9:15 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from King kong at 12:04 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 abortion is a bigger moral dilemma than you think. Yes, pro choice will allow the woman to get rid of a baby they got by rape, or a teenager can have one if they are not ready for a baby. The mothers life may be at risk.   One could argue the teenager could have used other means of comprehension . If every woman could get a abortion if they choose, they may treat it as a another means of comprehension. contraceptive* King Kong Posted at 9:04 am on Jan. 9, 2009 abortion is a bigger moral dilemma than you think. Yes, pro choice will allow the woman to get rid of a baby they got by rape, or a teenager can have one if they are not ready for a baby. The mothers life may be at risk. One could argue the teenager could have used other means of comprehension . If every woman could get a abortion if they choose, they may treat it as a another means of comprehension. osmoticdespair Posted at 8:51 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Event Horizon at 4:30 pm on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 4:45 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Technically apart from stem cells regular cells fully differentiated do not reproduce.    But yes, congrats for recognizing skin and muscle cells as alive. And so if I cut off someone's skin, am I therefore committing murder? No because someone's skin is not a human being. It is merely an organ (or if you only cut off a bit, merely a tissue). Event Horizon Posted at 8:30 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 4:45 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Technically apart from stem cells regular cells fully differentiated do not reproduce. But yes, congrats for recognizing skin and muscle cells as alive. And so if I cut off someone's skin, am I therefore committing murder? motorhead113 Posted at 3:01 am on Jan. 9, 2009 Quote: from Fentastic at 4:42 pm on Dec. 30, 2008 There was an anti-abortion demonstration on my campus, and one of the people came up to me and asked, "So what do you think of all this." To which I replied, "I don't care. It's kind of hard to get my boyfriend pregnant." She was take aback for a second, and replied, "Well what if your family member gets pregnant and has to have an abortion?" "My family hates me because I'm gay." Epic response is epic. Most recent 15 of 75 previous replies displayed.