Quoting Post Archived Topic: It will not be bumped to the top of the forum. Topic What is a 'Sin' and what is 'Moral' Membername   Not a member? Sign Up Free (takes 20 seconds) Password   Forgotten your password? Post Font: Verdana Arial Black Georgia Comic Sans Impact   Size: Tiny Normal Big Huge   Color: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Black [ Check Spelling ] [ Post Preview ] [ LiveTags ] Quote: from [m]Natsy[/m] at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009[quote]I think morality is just an opinion [/quote] FAQ Keyword Search: Post Options Favorites Manager Notify me of new replies to this topic by email Notify me of new replies to this topic by private message Original Post LogicandReason Posted at 9:44 am on July 8, 2009 Theist define behaviors that would separate a person from God as 'Sin.' Can anyone list all these 'sins?' Is morality defined by not committing any of these 'sins?' Can anyone, that is not Christian, be moral? Is 'non-belief' a sin?

Replies steath Posted at 8:09 am on July 10, 2009 "So you, i and everyone suffer due to Adam and Eve's mistake? Do you know that Genesis has two creation stories BTW? If God is Omniscience (all-knowing) then he knew that would happen." Where is the second creation story? and God knew all the outcomes. He knew that what happend would happen. God also knew all the possibilities. God knows what could have been. Do you not think God felt betrayed by us chossing somting other than our beloved creator? "So he allows horrible death and suffering so as not to interfere with free will...why does free will out weigh genocide? Is that your moral God? " Would God have morals at all if God compromised. That would make God human not God. How could manipulation of will be moral at all?   "So this is about the creator's need to be loved by his creation...is God that shallow and needy? He wasn't sure if we were picking him so he allows us to be massacred to protect his fragile sense of being needed. Charming. " You have kids... do you make them love you or do you want them to want to love you? theyareAs Posted at 6:37 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from steath at 6:07 pm on July 9, 2009 God did not create us doomed. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They brought sin to us. God created everything perfect and We screwed it up. and are still screwing up the world today. God created Hitler and Hitler made his own choices. God does not interfier with free will. If he did that we would not truly be able to love God. Hitler could have changed the world with his great mind for the better but chose differently. How do you quote? I still cant figure that out? Not surprising coming for a bible banger. God is a personal belief and shouldn't be used to make judgments or decisions, thats just plain old peer pressure yo LogicandReason Posted at 5:14 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009 God did not create us doomed. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They brought sin to us. God created everything perfect and We screwed it up. and are still screwing up the world today. So you, i and everyone suffer due to Adam and Eve's mistake?  Do you know that Genesis has two creation stories BTW?  If God is Omniscience (all-knowing) then he knew that would happen. Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009 God created Hitler and Hitler made his own choices. God does not interfier with free will. So he allows horrible death and suffering so as not to interfere with free will...why does free will out weigh genocide?  Is that your moral God? Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009 If he did that we would not truly be able to love God. Hitler could have changed the world with his great mind for the better but chose differently. So this is about the creator's need to be loved by his creation...is God that shallow and needy?  He wasn't sure if we were picking him so he allows us to be massacred to protect his fragile sense of being needed.  Charming. Quote: from steath at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009 How do you quote? I still cant figure that out? Hit me on message and I will explain how to do it... steath Posted at 4:07 pm on July 9, 2009 God did not create us doomed. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. They brought sin to us. God created everything perfect and We screwed it up. and are still screwing up the world today. God created Hitler and Hitler made his own choices. God does not interfier with free will. If he did that we would not truly be able to love God. Hitler could have changed the world with his great mind for the better but chose differently. How do you quote? I still cant figure that out? LogicandReason Posted at 4:04 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Emilybird at 7:56 pm on July 8, 2009 in the bible is the 10 commandments. Notice Emily that the first four are but throat clearing and not about moral behaviors.  This "all-inclusive list" fails to mention rape (the largest crime against women) and molestation.   Very vapid in scope. Quote: from Emilybird at 7:56 pm on July 8, 2009 if you disobey any of those commandments it is considered a sin. morality is just your personal opinion. whatever values you have in life. those are your morals. what you live up to. and if you have "non beliefs" then obviously sins do not apply because you dont belive in such a thing. My problem with this is that morality is an interaction between myself and others.  That contract is not unilateral  but bilateral.  We all, as a society, define moraltity and the zeitgeist does evolve as society becomes more complex. LogicandReason Posted at 3:59 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from steath at 3:50 pm on July 9, 2009 You can be a non christian and be moral. What are the morals if you are not christian? That is decided compleatly on you because you have no guid line but what you think good is. A solipsistic view at best.  We live in a society that defines morality to me...and I it (especially as a parent). Quote: from steath at 3:50 pm on July 9, 2009 You do not go to heaven based on how good we are. Every single person on Earth is a sinner. No matter what their background. Not one person is worthy or "good" enough to get into heaven without the belief in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Without Jesus' blood everyone would have eternal punishment in Hell. (including myself) Some God.  He creates us to be doomed to eternal hell...unless we accept his ultimatum?  Somebody dying for others is not moral...this soteriology is silly at best.   Quote: from steath at 3:50 pm on July 9, 2009 If Hitler did have a true belief in God and Jesus he never would have killed so many of God's chosen people. Its not my place to judge him tho. Thats up to God. If God existed and cared for us, Hitler would not have existed at all. steath Posted at 3:50 pm on July 9, 2009 You can be a non christian and be moral. What are the morals if you are not christian? That is decided compleatly on you because you have no guid line but what you think good is. You do not go to heaven based on how good we are. Every single person on Earth is a sinner. No matter what their background. Not one person is worthy or "good" enough to get into heaven without the belief in Jesus Christ as our saviour. Without Jesus' blood everyone would have eternal punishment in Hell. (including myself) If Hitler did have a true belief in God and Jesus he never would have killed so many of God's chosen people. Its not my place to judge him tho. Thats up to God. LogicandReason Posted at 3:24 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Moridin at 9:43 am on July 9, 2009 Yes, but now you are using a non-scientific meaning of the term evolution. I agree.  Evolution, per science, is not anthropologically affected but rather occurs through the mechanics of Natural Selection on gene allels. Morality seems to be the result of living within close proximity of one another...we need rules to make that work.  Morality has no fancy nor exclusive soteriology to make it work. LogicandReason Posted at 3:19 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Prince o palities at 9:19 am on July 9, 2009 That only works if faith is the simple act of belief. It isn't. The Bible certainly doesn't present it that way. John does in chapter 3. It's interesting really.  Paul obsesses about all kinds of formulas on the subject.  My theory of why the Gospels were written in the first place was to create an authority on these disputed issues...but then the evangelists did not agree either.  They were, afterall, different communities. Was does the Bible offer on defining 'sin' and 'morality' that is not disputed within its pages?  Do you see any clear instructions or are we to exegete Jesus' pithy aphorisms? LogicandReason Posted at 3:12 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Prince o palities at 7:49 am on July 9, 2009 The problem only comes if you misunderstand the relationship between morality and salvation. Morality is not causal for salvation. No one is saved because they are moral. If unbelief is the state of being in which one has no hope for the remission of sin, faith is the state of possessing that hope. But faith and hope are almost synonymous...especially in this case.  We cannot know if we will live after our death of if such a thing as eternity exists...we hope and apply faith.  Just because you hope does not mean its so. A theist says he/she has hope because he/she believes that there will be a remission  of sin...a non-believer knows that they will have to live with the consequences of their actions, and those actions define us as a person....but neither believe or wish for some settlement later...after this life. Unbelief is a state of dealing with the reality of life and ultimately death.  I have a hard time understanding why people think they are so important that they will live forever. You are right, belif and salvation have zero to do with morality...they are a card game.   Dan Dennett, author of Breaking The Spell mentions that Christians have spent quite a bit of time and money trying to link better morality to their faith and religion...they have yet to accomplish this.  In fact, in places of higher religiosity there is more violent crime (multiple sources including the Pew Institute).  Just go check the prisons...not full of the secular are they? Moridin Posted at 9:50 am on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Aimforthehead at 7:45 pm on July 9, 2009 That's true >_> I always found language to be a huge barrier to our understanding.   Technically it is evolution though... It is evolution in the more casual "change over time" usage of the term, yes. Aimforthehead Posted at 9:45 am on July 9, 2009 That's true >_> I always found language to be a huge barrier to our understanding. Technically it is evolution though... Moridin Posted at 9:43 am on July 9, 2009 Yes, but now you are using a non-scientific meaning of the term evolution. Aimforthehead Posted at 9:20 am on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Moridin at 9:12 am on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Aimforthehead at 5:56 pm on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Prince o palities at 7:51 am on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009 Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.     In a way.     For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.     Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.      This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?    I wouldn't say there are any opposites, just that they are different choices in life.      Now, from a scientific standpoint. I could say there are opposites in some things. For example, love and fear.    Which is usually what I use to base my morals on.    If fear, you are focusing internally. Detached from society creating more divisions (and everyone knows, an organism at war with itself, is doomed).    Buy more guns get more private property encourage wars, things like that.    Then love, which I'm sure you need no description.    Oh gee. I forgot to explain why this is scientifically based.    Well, you see a species, or body, evolves extremely slow when it is focused on protection. You cannot grow or evolve properly when you are focused internally. Fear is really a paralysis. I'm losing all of my links >_> I'll try and find it. Populations evolve, not individuals. Individuals determine if we evolve as a collective whole. For example if we want to end violence, one country cannot just decide they will begin a peace project. Every child in every country around the world would also have to have that same expectation. Every change begins with the individual Prince o palities Posted at 9:19 am on July 9, 2009 Quote: from Moridin at 11:11 am on July 9, 2009 Who are you to decide what the criteria for salvation is? I didn't decide. I am glad that you have understood the moral disconnect your theology has regarding ultimate salvation or normative behavior. I take it that you agree that Hitler, as a faithful Christian, has gone to heaven, whereas the around six million unfaithful Jews that where tortured and executed have ended up in hell? You are signaling that in the end, behavior does not matter, it is all good and dandy as long as you subscribe to this particular list of superstitious mythology. That only works if faith is the simple act of belief.  It isn't.  The Bible certainly doesn't present it that way.   Most recent 15 of 43 previous replies displayed.