Quoting Post Archived Topic: It will not be bumped to the top of the forum. Topic I'm glad that the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban was enacted Membername   Not a member? Sign Up Free (takes 20 seconds) Password   Forgotten your password? Post Font: Verdana Arial Black Georgia Comic Sans Impact   Size: Tiny Normal Big Huge   Color: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Black [ Check Spelling ] [ Post Preview ] [ LiveTags ] Quote: from [mod]marshmellowman[/mod] at 8:42 am on Dec. 2, 2008[quote]Quote: from [m]NikkiInkz[/m] at 4:37 pm on Dec. 2, 2008[quote] By eight weeks a baby can feel pain, the thalamus has started to function.   As no pain relief is given to the baby and it can feel pain by that point, how is it right to assume that a partially born baby can't feel pain during the abortion?[/quote]False, and you still haven't cited your sources. [quote]Researchers at the University of California, San Francisco, question the view that a foetus feels pain at 22 weeks, as proposed by some people. They say that signs of a withdrawal reflex or hormonal stress response at that time are automatic reactions, not signs of discomfort. Drawing on findings from thousands of articles in medical journals on the subject of foetal pain and related topics, Dr Mark Rosen and team write that "[b]pain is a subjective sensory and emotional experience that requires the presence of consciousness[/b]". Consciousness is created by brain connections between the thalamus and the cerebral cortex, and [b]those do not begin to develop before the 23rd week and possibly not before the 30th week of gestation[/b]. The human gestation period is 38 weeks from conception.[/quote] [url=http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2005/08/24/1444852.htm]link[/url][/quote] FAQ Keyword Search: Post Options Favorites Manager Notify me of new replies to this topic by email Notify me of new replies to this topic by private message Original Post NikkiInkz Posted at 8:13 am on Dec. 2, 2008 Partial-Birth Abortion is possibly the most disgusting thing I've ever heard of, and does count as murder and child abuse in my opinion. The fetus, at 24 weeks can feel pain but would have had to feel itself being killed if it was aborted in this way. I am pro-choice but I wonder why anyone would choose to subject another lifeform to this treatment. I realise that this is old news, but I'd like to have my say in the matter

Replies The Samsoniteman Posted at 12:42 pm on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from NikkiInkz at 5:22 pm on Dec. 3, 2008 I'm not against abortion, nor would I ever claim to be, I just don't like the idea of a fetus being so close to birth and then treated like that, let's face it a woman should have chosen by then to give the baby up. It seems so inhumane and there should be other ways. Why? If it's completely without suffering the only difference is the size of the foetus, quite a vague way of determining when a woman should be allowed to have a termination. The viability argument is OK, but still a bit wishy-washy. NikkiInkz Posted at 9:22 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from The Samsoniteman at 1:35 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 What don't you like about it, that it involves removing the fetus from the uterus as part of a surgical termination? I'm not against abortion, nor would I ever claim to be, I just don't like the idea of a fetus being so close to birth and then treated like that, let's face it a woman should have chosen by then to give the baby up. It seems so inhumane and there should be other ways. exceedinglyrare Posted at 8:49 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from The Samsoniteman at 11:28 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 3:29 pm on Dec. 3, 2008 That, generally speaking, the fetus is entirely viable on its own (at least as much as it can be--of course, it can't really walk to the store and buy a bag of chips or change its own diaper, but you know what I mean)...I don't approve of abortion at all (though legislation, I think, is not the way to change things), but it's more that I can't understand real circumstances that would make a partial birth abortion necessary. Unless, of course, you're giving birth to a half-vampire mutant fetus that broke your spine. Then I say, kill the Mary Sue. It could be that it's been discovered that the foetus will not be viable and so a termination is opted for rather than waiting for a miscarriage or still-birth. It would be interesting to see how common that is compared to late-term terminations caused only by the parent's desire not to carry on with the pregnancy. To be late-term abortions are so rare I doubt there are available statistics. I was wondering that myself. I can't imagine that partial-birth abortions are terribly common, or late term abortions, for that matter, but they would definitely be interesting statistics to see. The Samsoniteman Posted at 8:28 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 3:29 pm on Dec. 3, 2008 That, generally speaking, the fetus is entirely viable on its own (at least as much as it can be--of course, it can't really walk to the store and buy a bag of chips or change its own diaper, but you know what I mean)...I don't approve of abortion at all (though legislation, I think, is not the way to change things), but it's more that I can't understand real circumstances that would make a partial birth abortion necessary. Unless, of course, you're giving birth to a half-vampire mutant fetus that broke your spine. Then I say, kill the Mary Sue. It could be that it's been discovered that the foetus will not be viable and so a termination is opted for rather than waiting for a miscarriage or still-birth. It would be interesting to see how common that is compared to late-term terminations caused only by the parent's desire not to carry on with the pregnancy. To be late-term abortions are so rare I doubt there are available statistics. Discordany Posted at 7:51 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 9:29 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Unless, of course, you're giving birth to a half-vampire mutant fetus that broke your spine. I love you. exceedinglyrare Posted at 7:29 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from The Samsoniteman at 4:35 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 What don't you like about it, that it involves removing the fetus from the uterus as part of a surgical termination? That, generally speaking, the fetus is entirely viable on its own (at least as much as it can be--of course, it can't really walk to the store and buy a bag of chips or change its own diaper, but you know what I mean)...I don't approve of abortion at all (though legislation, I think, is not the way to change things), but it's more that I can't understand real circumstances that would make a partial birth abortion necessary. Unless, of course, you're giving birth to a half-vampire mutant fetus that broke your spine. Then I say, kill the Mary Sue. osmoticdespair Posted at 6:03 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from marshmellowman at 12:34 pm on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 11:51 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from marshmellowman at 4:42 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Consciousness is created by brain connections between the thalamus and the cerebral cortex Huh? In order for a person to be conscious, that is aware of their own existence and surroundings and have sensational abilities, neurones need to be able to pass impulses from the thalamus to the cerebral cortex. Whether or not that is the case I think it is a jump to say that consciousness is created by... etc. I am pretty sure neurology is nowhere near advanced enough to know the cause of consciousness. Unless they discovered this incredibly recently. marshmellowman Posted at 4:34 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 11:51 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from marshmellowman at 4:42 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Consciousness is created by brain connections between the thalamus and the cerebral cortex Huh? In order for a person to be conscious, that is aware of their own existence and surroundings and have sensational abilities, neurones need to be able to pass impulses from the thalamus to the cerebral cortex. According to the article I quoted these aren't developed until at least the 23rd week of gestation, therefore it would make the foetus incapable of being aware of themselves let alone feel pain. osmoticdespair Posted at 3:51 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Quote: from marshmellowman at 4:42 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Consciousness is created by brain connections between the thalamus and the cerebral cortex Huh? Discordany Posted at 8:21 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from The Samsoniteman at 8:27 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from orange joy at 1:21 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Im sure there are women who dont decide to until late, and have it for non-medical reasons, which is what I believe should be illegal. Do you think late-term (ie. "post-viable", perhaps from the 21st week onwards) should be banned? If so, why? As I said in an earlier post; yes. If a the "fetus" can live outside of the womb, I consider it a child. Due to this, I dont think its right to abort any longer. Like I said in my previous post, however, if it were done for medical reasons, it should still be legal. The Samsoniteman Posted at 6:27 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from orange joy at 1:21 am on Dec. 3, 2008 Im sure there are women who dont decide to until late, and have it for non-medical reasons, which is what I believe should be illegal. Do you think late-term (ie. "post-viable", perhaps from the 21st week onwards) should be banned? If so, why? Aristocrat Posted at 5:41 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 If some of these women don't want kids then they should just keep their legs closed rather than commiting murder.  Isn't that simple? Discordany Posted at 5:21 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from The Samsoniteman at 1:47 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 I am taught that if the life of a pregnant woman (and therefore her fetus) is in danger then your priority is always the life of the woman, there are no exceptions. I don't have any statistics to hand but I can't imagine why there should be any partial birth abortions for non-medical reasons. Generally women who have progressed that far into a pregnancy have made up their mind to keep it. Well, if the discussion is whether it should be banned if its used only for medical reasons, then I would change my original statement; medical reasons are worth it. However, Im sure there are women who dont decide to until late, and have it for non-medical reasons, which is what I believe should be illegal. The Samsoniteman Posted at 2:37 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from lsd at 9:43 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Everything is a play on emotions. Using taxpayer's money to prevent starvation (or combat aids) in Africa is the biggest play on emotions for a particular policy that I can think of. Perhaps, but at least there is a difference between honest and dishonest emotive language. Your claim that because a baby can be aborted because it does not feel pain does not seem as logical to me as it might to yourself. If we extend your argument that any person, born or unborn, which does not feel pain is therefore not living or allowed to be terminated, then couldn't we do the same thing for a lot of situations in life such as coma patients (who have the potential for recovery) or anyone who has lost their ability to feel pain for whatever reason? I was merely pointing out that fetus' younger than ~30 weeks are unable to feel pain. That is all. lsd Posted at 1:46 pm on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from GeneCosta at 11:26 am on Dec. 2, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 9:58 am on Dec. 2, 2008 Personally, I don't see the point of partial-birth abortions. Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any reasons why someone would choose to have a partial-birth abortion? Most women who get it are advised by their doctors that either they will have medical complications later on. Partial birth abortion contributes to a higher survival rate. She was probably talking about instances where the "mother" chooses to have an abortion as a form of birth control. Most recent 15 of 45 previous replies displayed.