Quoting Post Archived Topic: It will not be bumped to the top of the forum. Topic i have a question for conservatives Membername   Not a member? Sign Up Free (takes 20 seconds) Password   Forgotten your password? Post Font: Verdana Arial Black Georgia Comic Sans Impact   Size: Tiny Normal Big Huge   Color: Default Dark Red Red Orange Brown Green Olive Cyan Blue Dark Blue Indigo Black [ Check Spelling ] [ Post Preview ] [ LiveTags ] Quote: from [m]thinkexist[/m] at 4:01 pm on July 3, 2012[quote]i always understood conservatives to be people who are for a smaller central government. unlike liberals, who might support government intervention (the individual health care mandate being a prime example), conservatives feel that people should basically get to make those decisions themselves, and that the more government gets involved the less free the american citizens are. is that a fair statement? truly, correct me if i'm mistaken. because if the above is indeed true... i guess i'm a little confused about republican social platforms. if you want government to be as small as possible, and to butt out of your business, then: -why are republicans the ones who are trying to tell me who i can and can not marry? -why are republicans the ones who are so concerned with what's going on inside my uterus? -why are republicans the ones who support giving the government permission to kill off citizens (the death penalty)?" that seems like an [b]awful lot[/b] of the government shoving its nose where it doesn't belong. you'd think republicans would take that stance, too, but they don't. why?[/quote] FAQ Keyword Search: Post Options Favorites Manager Notify me of new replies to this topic by email Notify me of new replies to this topic by private message Original Post thinkexist Posted at 4:01 pm on July 3, 2012 i always understood conservatives to be people who are for a smaller central government. unlike liberals, who might support government intervention (the individual health care mandate being a prime example), conservatives feel that people should basically get to make those decisions themselves, and that the more government gets involved the less free the american citizens are. is that a fair statement? truly, correct me if i'm mistaken. because if the above is indeed true... i guess i'm a little confused about republican social platforms. if you want government to be as small as possible, and to butt out of your business, then: -why are republicans the ones who are trying to tell me who i can and can not marry? -why are republicans the ones who are so concerned with what's going on inside my uterus? -why are republicans the ones who support giving the government permission to kill off citizens (the death penalty)?" that seems like an awful lot of the government shoving its nose where it doesn't belong. you'd think republicans would take that stance, too, but they don't. why?

Replies Lyrical Death Posted at 6:29 pm on Aug. 31, 2012 Social conservatives want to protect the sanctity of marriage.  Besides those who are homophobic and don't to see their kids turn gay/come out the closet due to sit becoming a social norm, there are many who don't want to see the concept of marriage become trivialized to the point that a group of friends can have one, which they'll argue is consistent with the reasoning that says gay marriage should be legal.  I wouldn't consider it an assault on freedom, considering they're mostly choosing not to recognize gay marriage as opposed to bringing in police squads to break up gay weddings.  They'll also say that government doesn't have the right to do wrong, with legalizing gay marriage being the wrong. As for the socially conservative stance on abortion, they'll view it as a protection of human life, consistent with the most basic concepts of law and the God-given rights to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."  The laws pertaining to mandatory ultrasounds or whatever they're coming up with nowadays are a response to Roe vs Wade taking away states' rights to determine their own laws when it comes to banning abortion. As for the death penalty, it's usually only given as a response to murder itself.  A just and fair exchange I'd say, especially when it comes to serial killers.  There are certain crimes which simply can't be forgiven, and the chance of a murderer being back out on the street to commit more murder simply isn't worth keeping them alive.  There are also the families of the victims to consider, who can sleep a lot easier knowing justice has been served. Now, as a Democrat, it's important to realize that your views against killing citizens are antithetical to the President's views, who prefers to skip the trial and go straight for their heads.  The hypocrisy in this is too large to be ignored considering not too long ago, he promised to close down Gitmo. lollerwhat Posted at 11:19 pm on July 3, 2012 1)It is too bad there are no conservatives trying to make gay marriage illegal, then OP would have a point. 2)I take it that OP also thinks that the govt should get out of the way when you beat and rape your spouse, they are just a part of you anyways and not really a separate entity. 3)OP must love how the general population prisoner has a much shorter lifespan than your average death row inmate.  It is also quite ironic how OP wants to slaughter innocent children who have done nothing to give up their right to life, while going all out to defend criminals. Elm Posted at 9:38 pm on July 3, 2012 The political definition of conservative is not nearly the same as the dictionary definition.   Usage in jargon (which is what the word is when used politically) is often very different than the use of the same in the lexicon. Paleo-Conservatives (30's through 60's and Reagan) are closer to Classical Liberals than are Modern American Liberals. GmanXXVI Posted at 7:49 pm on July 3, 2012 Your first mistake is using the words conservative and republican interchangeably. The republicans are a party, meaning their platforms are not based on any one ideology, instead they absorb a bunch of different ones in order to get votes. Currently they're pandering to neo cons and evangelicals. Hence the cray social problems. kidd rune Posted at 7:33 pm on July 3, 2012 Quote: from Ouroborealis at 9:54 pm on July 3, 2012 1. Gay people can and do have children, just not by themselves (but lots of straight, married people go to fertility clinics too). They can also adopt. (oh hey, straight married people do this as well. Hmm. No difference.) That's more of an exception to the rule, and adoption doesn't really disprove my point - the child was already in existence and if his parents were married, they should have gotten a tax cut. I'm telling you what the US government justifies it with, this is from their own admission. 2. The state doesn't want to take care of that child either, according to most conservative stances, so then that child goes on to be unwanted, unsupported, and usually neglected. There is a direct correlation between children born to women who lack access to birth control and abortion aud crime rates. Yes, people are complete fucking idiots and should be sterilized for their stupidity. I agree with you there. 3. People on death row often still sit in prison for a really long time. It costs more to kill a prisoner than it does that rehabilitate them. That's a problem with the system and not the actual death itself. For example, hanging someone pretty much costs just a rope, and you can reuse a rope. Other execution methods I can't imagine use more money than decades of food and water for a person. There are an awful lot of contradictions in the "conservative" party's beliefs. It's because people are contradictory, and hypocritical. Everyone wants to be able to tell everyone else how it should be done, and not have to answer to anyone else. I'm pretty sure that is human nature. There was a justification for most of their beliefs, hence why they were already the original ideas. Conservatives are great in that they don't want to change everything like liberals, but they're bad in that they aren't systematic thinkers. I don't really like either conservatives or liberals but there's not much we can do about the fact that most people are idiots. At least conservative policies don't instigate the spread of stupidity like many liberal policies do. joule Posted at 7:28 pm on July 3, 2012 Quote: from Ouroborealis at 6:54 pm on July 3, 2012Quote: from kidd rune at 7:33 pm on July 3, 2012 3. People on death row often still sit in prison for a really long time. It costs more to kill a prisoner than it does that rehabilitate them. There are an awful lot of contradictions in the "conservative" party's beliefs. It's because people are contradictory, and hypocritical. Everyone wants to be able to tell everyone else how it should be done, and not have to answer to anyone else. I'm pretty sure that is human nature.   Though I don't align myself with any movement, my beliefs are more along those of liberals than conservatives.  That being said, Your reference to the cost of killing vs rehabbing a prisoner is wrong.  It cost more to keep a person in prison than support them in society. You can't make the comparison you're making.  Rehabilitating a person who would be on death row has an extremely low chance of success.  The recidivism rate of even less violent criminal in systems which support rehab is still terrible. Personally, I'm opposed to the death penalty.  But the question is:  death or life in prison.  It's not death or rehab. Your last paragraph is an example of false reasoning.  You say "There are an awful lot of contradictions in the "conservative" party's beliefs," but in fact, there's no fewer contradictions in the liberal party's beliefs.  And the remainder of your paragraph basically says that, citing it as a function of "human nature."  So it's not a "conservative" issue; by your ownn words it's a human nature issue. You trip yourself up in your attempt to apply the same reasoning to the different groups. The New World Order Posted at 7:18 pm on July 3, 2012 Im Fiscally Conservertive, Socially Liberal whichs means any thing that Limits Socail choice im Against. Im Finding most modern Conservertives will falk more along this as tge youth become more Socially Liberal. Ouroborealis Posted at 6:54 pm on July 3, 2012 Quote: from kidd rune at 7:33 pm on July 3, 2012 The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals usually like to change things and conservatives like to keep what already works. I discuss it in this thread: http://golivewire.com/forums/peer-eoipsna-support-a.html I'm not a conservative but usually they define marriage as between a man and a woman and as same-sex couples cannot reproduce, they don't see any reason for the government to recognize their marriages and give tax cuts. The government justifies tax cuts by claiming that a marriage produces children that will eventually become taxed anyway. Same-sex couples don't produce children. As for abortion, they usually claim that a fetus is life and should not be killed just because you don't want to take care of it. As for the death penalty that's a moral issue and everyone has their own justification for or against it. And really what's the point in letting someone just sit in prison the rest of their life? 1. Gay people can and do have children, just not by themselves (but lots of straight, married people go to fertility clinics too). They can also adopt. (oh hey, straight married people do this as well. Hmm. No difference.) 2. The state doesn't want to take care of that child either, according to most conservative stances, so then that child goes on to be unwanted, unsupported, and usually neglected. There is a direct correlation between children born to women who lack access to birth control and abortion and crime rates. 3. People on death row often still sit in prison for a really long time. It costs more to kill a prisoner than it does that rehabilitate them. There are an awful lot of contradictions in the "conservative" party's beliefs. It's because people are contradictory, and hypocritical. Everyone wants to be able to tell everyone else how it should be done, and not have to answer to anyone else. I'm pretty sure that is human nature. 1i Posted at 5:27 pm on July 3, 2012 it's been my understanding that republicans prefer social control and economic freedom but i don't know much about politics. thinkexist Posted at 4:56 pm on July 3, 2012 Quote: from stormbringer at 6:27 pm on July 3, 2012 OK, I consider myself a conservative, and I will take a stab at answering your questions. First, not all conservatives agree on all issues. I don't buy the "one package" philosophy. My views on the economy should not determine my views on religion; my views on taxes should not be correlated to my views on same-sex marriage, etc. Yes, I believe that government should not baby the citizens and run their lives for them. Now, concretely on your questions. 1. I too support same sex marriage, and I believe that conservatives are shooting themselves in the foot when they are opposing it. 2. The issue with abortion is no simple one. If you know that a woman wants to kill her own child, you wouldn't watch calmly, you would probably intervene. Yes, abortion is something else, I agree it is different, but just how different? My personal view on abortion is rather ambivalent. I believe that it should be legal and accessible. At the same time, I will not choose abortion for myself, and if a friend asks me for advice, I will strongly advocate against the abortion. 3. Death penalty. Do you believe that crime should be punished? Or should criminals be free to do as they wish without fear of retribution? How strong a punishment is too strong? Where do you draw the line? Yes, conservatives are for a small government, but not for no government at all. There are some functions that the government should fulfil, like protecting its citizens from external invasion and from criminals inside it. I agree that the death penalty is an extreme measure and it should be used only in extreme cases. But I am perfectly OK with it being used against mass murderers, serial rapists, and telemarketers. fair enough that people do not have to hold one ideology over all, but can have different opinions on different political issues. i should probably select my word choice more carefully and in the future specify that i mean to talk about the republican party's official stance. as far as abortion goes... i realize that some people believe that a fetus = a child and thus that an abortion = murder. the real point here, though, is that everybody has a different opinion on when we should start granting that fetus human and legal rights. republicans are perfectly entitled to their opinion that the rights should be granted from the moment of conception, but others are perfectly entitled to think otherwise. so the 'you'd stop someone who was commiting murder, wouldn't you?' argument doesn't hold water with me. you cannot and never will be able to 'prove' that abortion is murder, because, put simply, it's an opinion question. capital punishment... there is a very big difference between detaining someone because they broke the law and killing someone because they broke the law. obviously you'd be hard pressed to find either a democrat or a republican who is against any kind of prison. it just seems odd that the party who is so against government intervention is the party arguing the government should have the ability to kill people. doesn't get much more extreme than that. Doubleshift Posted at 4:43 pm on July 3, 2012 The term conservative doesn't necessarily mean that someone wants small government. It mostly just means that things need to stay the way they are. My dad considers himself Conservative, and he thinks the constitution should remain the way it is, as opposed to a living document that can be amended. The Last Magister Posted at 4:42 pm on July 3, 2012 To understand the answer, you have to understand two concepts. First, the words conservative and republican are not interchangeable. Libertarians and many republicans are not socially conservative and don't believe these things and what you're talking about is an idea both benevolently misconstrued and deliberately espoused by certain liberals. Second, conservatism in the loosest and most basic sense of the word is traditionalism and slow reform. With this in mind, the American interpretation is those in favor of older American ideals rather than a progressive attitude. While most conservatives are deeply concerned with freedom, many struggle to find a common ground against standing traditions such as bans on same-sex marriage and abortion based either in standing religious or political institutions. kidd rune Posted at 4:33 pm on July 3, 2012 The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals usually like to change things and conservatives like to keep what already works. I discuss it in this thread: http://golivewire.com/forums/peer-eoipsna-support-a.html I'm not a conservative but usually they define marriage as between a man and a woman and as same-sex couples cannot reproduce, they don't see any reason for the government to recognize their marriages and give tax cuts. The government justifies tax cuts by claiming that a marriage produces children that will eventually become taxed anyway. Same-sex couples don't produce children. As for abortion, they usually claim that a fetus is life and should not be killed just because you don't want to take care of it. As for the death penalty that's a moral issue and everyone has their own justification for or against it. And really what's the point in letting someone just sit in prison the rest of their life? stormbringer Posted at 4:27 pm on July 3, 2012 OK, I consider myself a conservative, and I will take a stab at answering your questions. First, not all conservatives agree on all issues. I don't buy the "one package" philosophy. My views on the economy should not determine my views on religion; my views on taxes should not be correlated to my views on same-sex marriage, etc. Yes, I believe that government should not baby the citizens and run their lives for them. Now, concretely on your questions. 1. I too support same sex marriage, and I believe that conservatives are shooting themselves in the foot when they are opposing it. 2. The issue with abortion is no simple one. If you know that a woman wants to kill her own child, you wouldn't watch calmly, you would probably intervene. Yes, abortion is something else, I agree it is different, but just how different? My personal view on abortion is rather ambivalent. I believe that it should be legal and accessible. At the same time, I will not choose abortion for myself, and if a friend asks me for advice, I will strongly advocate against the abortion. 3. Death penalty. Do you believe that crime should be punished? Or should criminals be free to do as they wish without fear of retribution? How strong a punishment is too strong? Where do you draw the line? Yes, conservatives are for a small government, but not for no government at all. There are some functions that the government should fulfil, like protecting its citizens from external invasion and from criminals inside it. I agree that the death penalty is an extreme measure and it should be used only in extreme cases. But I am perfectly OK with it being used against mass murderers, serial rapists, and telemarketers. lostsoul305 Posted at 4:26 pm on July 3, 2012 Idk. Nothing makes sense in this country's politics anymore. Most recent 15 of 24 previous replies displayed.