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Topic Why Do Black People Not Tip?
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Original Post
Bud2400 Posted at 4:51 am on Aug. 19, 2008
A word on tipping before I get started:

I know you Brits and Aussies out there have something against tipping, so let me say this.  Tips are more than just something to reward extra good service in the United States - in the US, tips are expected.  This is mainly due to employers cutting their labor costs and letting their customers cover that.  It might seem like an atrocious thing for an employer to do, but it's really not that bad when you think about it.

Consider this.  Somebody has to cover the cost of labor one way or another, and the customer is always the one who has to pay for that.  Whether there's an auto gratuity or an optional, but culturally expected gratuity, the cost is being covered in some way - the only difference between the US and Australia & the UK is that in the US, you actually have the option to choose what how much of a gratuity you think is worth the service your server gave you and whether or not you want to pay for that service at all provided that it was horrible and / or the server offended you.  Theoretically, this will make your server want to serve you to the best of their abilities given that incentive.  In the UK and Australia, that option is non-existent with an auto-gratuity, nor is that incentive for the server to do their best there either.

In the face of rising national minimum wages in the US, you can be sure that any server whose state is being effected by the rise is not being given that raise - rather, most employers simply keep their employees at the same wage they've always been giving them, now at a sub-minimum wage.  Not tipping for perfectly good service (ie. a "stiff") is, to most professions that rely on tips, a cheap way to save your money by hurting the income of your server.  You might say "get a new job" or "complain to your employer about it," but in the US, the employer is not the one who is responsible for distributing the cost of labor - the consumer is, and stiffing in the US is therefore an abuse of that system.

Another thing to note.

This is going to be a very long post, full of graphs and analysis, and a very worthy read, I think.  If you don't want to read it all and only respond to the prompt "why do black people tend to not tip?" then go ahead and skip all that.  The rest of everything I'm going to be writing about is only to prove to the assertion I made in the prompt, and a few other things that I'm sure people will list as reasons why.

However, do keep one thing in mind.  The individual does not apply to the collective and the collective does not apply to the individual.  In other words, you cannot use a stereotype to define a single person, neither can you define a stereotype using a single person.  The two influence each other no doubt, thus why we say there's a "tendency," but it always helps to bear this in mind when talking about broad generalities like this.  Do not mistake a tendency as something that applies to all people, for the very definition of a tendency requires that not all people follow the tendency exactly as it is.


The Race Tipping Survey


As some of you may or may not know, I deliver pizzas for Pizza Hut as a part time job while taking classes at my university.  Pizza delivery drivers in the United States are always paid at minimum wage, if not sub-minimum wage in the states which allow sub-minimum wages (fortunately for me, Washington state is not one of them).  As a result, a very significant portion of my earnings depends on tips.  Though I am reimbursed on gas, such reimbursement only barely covers that - rarely does it ever cover wear and tear on my car, which would put my overall wage below minimum if not for tips.  Moreover, even if I were to break even with minimum wage as folks over in sub-minimum wage states often do, risking an auto accident being on the road the majority of my shifts and delivering pizzas to occasionally dangerous areas and dealing with people outside the security of the store does not make this job worth only minimum wage.  Moreover, despite what the name would lead you to believe, delivery charges do not go to the driver, but rather, are used to subsidize the cost of ingredients and production in the store.  This, my friends, is why you tip pizza delivery drivers in the United States.

Onto my actual race survey.  After starting delivering pizzas June of last year, I began noticing a peculiar trend - to put it bluntly, that black people have a tendency to not tip you for perfectly good service (ie., again, a stiff), or when they do, the tip is usually pretty pathetic.  As a result, I created a list of addresses who didn't tip me, or tipped me very poorly (as in less than 5% of the total bill) so if they ever ordered from us again, I would be able to catch that and prioritize them last for other deliveries that do tip.  You pay the minimum, you get the minimum.  That's how I've always seen it.

Scanning through these entries on the list, I thought to myself, "Good God, how many of these customers are black and how many are not?"  I vaguely remember the appearance of some of my customers, but I usually forget about most.  However, when I think about my great nights where I made a killing in tips, I think about the customers I served and I see white faces, some Asian, and perhaps even a Latino here and there.  On my worst nights?  Blacks.  Indeed, I'm not the only person to see this - throughout the service industry, the stereotype that blacks don't tip and is not worth your time to serve properly is widespread.  While stereotypes are stereotypes, stereotypes just don't pop up from out of nothing.  So I decided to investigate this matter for myself - through a race tipping survey I made, so that I can actually see how the different races tip, as well as note a few other variables, and see how much they support such stereotypes.


Methods of the Race Tipping Survey


In my survey, I recorded a sample size of 1000 deliveries, and recorded 5 different variables, only three of which - tip size, race, and socioeconomic class - are relevant since I was too lazy to analyze the other two I recorded (which are sex and age group) - it took me a long enough time to just analyze tip sizes by race and socioeconomic class.

First of all, what are the controls?  The first control is that all deliveries recorded must be delivered early or on time in 45 minutes or less.  This ensures that all customers should be satisfied with the service I provide them.  Things like how I park, how I smile, etc. are irrelevent in my mind, mainly because I honestly do not vary a whole lot regarding that.  If there's any reason why my service would be subpar (such as being late, forgetting an item for some reason, etc., the delivery is not recorded.

The second control is that the total amount, after sales tax (9%ish here) and the delivery charge, must be in between $20 and $35.  Tips in between these amounts do not vary a whole lot; you are about as likely to get a $3 tip from a $20 order as you are from a $30 order.  Despite my defining good and bad tips by percentages (which I only really use to denote the shitty tips and for large ($50+) orders), most people who order pizza delivery tip on a flat rate.


How Do the Variables Work?


There are five variables; four independent variables and one dependent variable.  The dependent variable is the tip size, and the independent variables are race, class, age, and sex.

Tip Size

Tip size is exactly what the name suggests - the size of the tip.  A stiff is considered to be anything less than $1.  So $0.99 or less, or "keep the change," is considered a stiff.  Shitty / pathetic tips are considered to be around $1 to $2 for the order amounts we're considering, although there are drivers and other servers out there who would regard anything less than $2 no matter what the order amount was as a shitty tip.

Race

This is the central focus of this study and I've divided the races up by the five I notice most in my area: Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians (as in East or Southeast Asians), and Indians (as in East Indians from South Asia - not Native Americans).  One should keep in mind that as a social construct, races are very loosely defined.  While the most extreme examples of a race are very easily defined (as in the whitest of people, the blackest of people, etc.), those on the fringe of those labels are a little more difficult to define.  Latinos in particular are a sticky issue, for Latino really isn't even a "race," but rather, more of a group.  Even the whitest of people could be considered to be Latino.  And those of two or more races will probably be mistaken as a single race depending on which they resemble more (I have no way of seeing who's a mixed person or not).  Although mixed people are in the minority, and for the purposes of this survey, my definitions and how I go about labeling who's what should be sufficient.

Socioeconomic Class

This is another central variable I'll be looking at in this survey.  I have divided socioeconomic class by 5 different labels, and only 3 of which really exist in my area.  They are as follows:

- The Section 8 / Public Housing Development class.  In other words, the impoverished.  As the name of this class should suggest, these are the type of people you would find in public housing developments and projects.  Fortunately for me, none of that exists in my delivery area, so disregard this class.

- The working class.  These are the people who live in apartments or trailer homes.  Anybody who I deliver to that lives in an apartment or a trailer home is assigned to this class.  The rents for a single bedroom apartment in my area go from around $750 to $1250 a month.

- The lower-middle class.  These are the people who live in condos, townhouses, and low income housing (which, around here, would be about $300,000 or less).

- The middle class.  These are the people who live in moderate houses in typical suburbia.  Middle class homes are usually around $400,000 to $600,000 in my delivery area.

- The upper middle class.  These are the people who live in fairly spacious and lavish homes in your typical suburbia.  The price on these houses are usually over $800,000 in my area.  Very few of these houses exist where I deliver to and I haven't recorded any pizza that I delivered to a place like this, so disregard this class.

There could also be a 6th class, the upper class, but certainly none of those types of houses exist in my area.  Do remember that like races, lumping homes into a single label may not necessarily tell the whole story, as many are on the fringe of the prices I gave.  However, like with races, the way I've labeled them should be sufficient for the survey.

Age

Not very important since I didn't analyze it, but pretty obvious - does the person look like they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s, etc.?  Obviously, this is probably the one variable where I could easily misjudge a person on, and part of the reason why I haven't really felt motivated to analyze it.

Sex

Are you a boy or are you girl?  Pretty obvious, and while it would be interesting to analyze, I'm just too tired after analyzing race and socioeconomic class.  And if you're worried about me misjudging a person on this, don't worry - I won't record the people who I have no idea what sex they are!


The Delivery Area / Customer Base Demographics


Using statistics from the 2000 Census, I looked up the racial makeup of the three zip codes the Pizza Hut I work at serves, added the total numbers all up, and figured out the approximate racial makeup of my delivery area.  They are as followed in the picture below:

For those of you who don't know, I live and deliver in a suburb of Seattle - so you can expect to see lots of whites (which the Pacific Northwest is composed more predominantly of than certain other areas in the United States), as well as significant numbers of Asians like any West Coast city.

There are somewhere around 128,000 people that reside in my delivery area - this does not include those who work there, which would drive the number up even further, although I didn't record business deliveries for the fact that I'd have a much more difficult time assessing the socioeconomic status of the person I'd be delivering to.

Consider the pie graph of the racial makeup on my area and compare it to the pie graph of the racial makeup of the 1000 deliveries I recorded.

Notice a few changes?  The most obvious is that blacks shot up from 8% to 20% of the racial makeup, thereby "increasing" by 250%.  Latinos also raised, though less noticeably, from 6% to 10%.  Why these changes occurred is hard to say, though I'd claim that pizza is a food item that blacks and Latinos enjoy and eat quite a bit of - certainly more than whites, who also eat pizza quite a bit, but obviously not enough in the face of the increased demand from blacks and Latinos, and thus as a result, dropped from 70% to 62%.  Asians also dropped quite noticeably, from 13% to 6%, largely because I believe pizza is not a typical food item Asians usually eat.


So What About the Tips?


Let's take a look at the customer base racial makeup one more time.

Now observe that and compare it to this next pie graph, which shows the percentage each race contributed to my total tips after 1000 deliveries:

See a few changes?  One of the most noticeable changes is the fact that blacks dropped from 20% back to 8%, which should suggest that despite their significant makeup of the customer base, blacks do not tip very well at all.  Latinos, too, also dropped, but only by 1%, which is fairly negligible.

The other most noticeable change is the fact that whites went from 62% to 73%!  This should suggest that in the face of face of a lack of tips from blacks, the tips from whites makes up a greater percentage of all tips and thus the percentage of tips from whites becomes a lot larger than their share of the customer base.  This, obviously, means that whites tip, and they tip rather well.  Asians, too, increased, although only by 2%.  Despite that, for their small makeup of the customer base, this is very significant.  The main reason why whites increased so much is mainly because they make up far more of the customer base than Asians - about 624 total for whites, and 55 for Asians.  So this should suggest that Asians, like whites, tip very well also.

And the last group, Indians, which makes up the smallest percentage of the customer base, did not change at all in percentage to how much they contributed to the sum of all my tips.  This should suggest that Indians tip moderately and consistently.


More on How Each Race Tips


Let's look at each of the five races in regards to how they collectively tip and see what we can analyze.

Whites

For these next set of graphs, I will be using scatter plots.  I will also show you the mean (average), median (middle number), mode (most frequent number), and the stiff rate (the percentage of how many stiffs I received from a particular race, suggesting how likely it is, with all other factors aside, that I will be stiffed by a member of that race).

The total number of whites I recorded was 624, or about 62.4% of the customer base.

Mean: $3.26
Median: 3.37
Mode: $3.00
Stiff Rate: 8.7%

If you were to stereotype whites on how they tip based on the graph, what would you say?  From my perspective, most whites tip in between $2 and $5, although there's quite a few tipping above or below that.  Whites, overall, seem to be all over the place, and as I present how the other races tip, you'll notice that nobody varies as much as whites.  As a result, it's honestly very difficult to assume what a tip from a white customer would be, although given the average and even higher median, it's obvious that tips from whites overall will be remembered as good tips.  Though the stiff rate is 8.7%, the other things will usually make up for it and thus most drivers and servers remember white customers as the "better" customers in terms of tips.  Considering how readily Americans recognize race before all other attributes to an individual, it should be no surprise that given the statistics, whites are stereotyped as such, rather than how much they vary which would be more accurate.

Blacks

Mean: $1.11
Median: $0.90
Mode: $0.00
Stiff Rate: 50.3%

Just by comparing the two graphs, the way blacks tip is extremely different from whites.  Given their extraordinarily high stiff rate, the fact that their median is a stiff and much lower than the average tip, and that the most frequently occurring tip is zilch, it shouldn't be a surprise at all that drivers and servers stereotype blacks as the "worst" customers as far as tipping goes.  Moreover, unlike whites, there isn't nearly as much variance among blacks, which makes such stereotypes much easier to make and support.

Latinos

Mean: $2.30
Median: $2.00
Mode: $2.00
Stiff Rate: 14.7%

Notice how a lot of the tips hug the $2 line.  This is essentially how most drivers and servers would define how Latinos tip - not as good as whites, but at least they tip, making them "better" than blacks.  They also vary a lot more and aren't predominantly stiffs (despite their fairly high 14.7% stiff rate), so it's much easier to stereotype Latinos as "okay" tippers; not good, but also not horrible.  Many drivers and servers would disagree with that stereotype I created, which also suggests to me that the Latinos in my area are a little different from other areas.  Considering that most of the Latinos who don't reside in major cities or near the Mexican-American border are often richer, and thus more integrated, than usual, this would make sense.

Asians

Mean: $3.74
Median: $3.88
Mode: $4.00
Stiff Rate: 3.6%

Asians, like whites, tend to vary a lot, although they also seem to hang around the $4 line more or less, too.  While one could say that Asians tip like whites, one will also notice how Asians are much more consistent than whites overall, considering their low stiff rate (the lowest out of them all), creating much higher means, medians, and modes for them.  If one were to stereotype how Asians tip, saying that they tip like whites but rarely stiff would be accurate given these results.

Indians

Mean: $2.55
Median: $2.465
Mode: $2.00
Stiff Rate: 12.5%

Anything I have on Indians will be sketchy at best considering that I only recorded 24 Indians total.  What surprise me most about Indians is their stiff rate of 12.5%.  In the past, I always described Indians as tipping like Asians, but usually less money.  One could still say that, but also that Indians also stiff more, which would, in turn, make them more like Latino tippers, but not quite.  They're consistent for the most part, though, and given how their averages and median tips aren't bad, most people will stereotype them as all right, although, like with Latinos, not everyone is inclined to agree with me there either.


Stiffing


If there's one thing obvious from those five scatterplots, it's that out of all racial groups, blacks differ from all others most in how they tip, especially in regards with how many blacks don't tip.  Observe the percentage each race contributes to the total number of stiffs during my 1000 deliveries:

Blacks, by far, make up the majority of all stiffs.  This isn't even including the tips between $1 and $2.  When blacks make up 195 of all 1000 deliveries and whites make up 624 of all 1000 deliveries, yet the black stiff rate is almost twice in absolute numbers than whites, there's obviously something at play here.  Let's observe the stiff rates of each race, which I have already mentioned, but not provided a graph for.

Looking at these stiff rates, blacks are the outlying group.  As far as tipping goes, something different from all other races influences blacks to tip less / not tip at all.  Even if you don't agree with tipping, the fact that blacks are so different in regards to how they collectively tip should indicate that there's something wrong.

I'm certainly not the only person to have noticed or looked at the issue before.  A Cornell professor named Michael Lynn has written some interesting things about this issue here, which you need Adobe to view as it's a PDF file:

http://people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf

Lynn, an associate professor of marketing, analyzes how the lack of tips from blacks not only the servers they stiff / tip poorly, but how the stereotype is created which leads servers to treat blacks with less courtesy, and also, how this inhibits sitdown restaurants from expanding into predominantly black areas for bad tips not only creates a very high turnover rate of servers, but also how blacks as a result of their treatment, will be less inclined to return to the restaurant.

What Lynn suggests is the underlying problem is that blacks are simply uninformed about tipping and what a proper tip is.  Indeed, he highlights how blacks, when they do tip, tip on a flat rate as opposed to on a percentage like most whites.  Thus Lynn suggests that it would be in these restaurants' best interests to advertise tipping to blacks, though very subtly as to avoid racial lawsuits.

Lynn's problem, however, is that he assumes that the majority of blacks don't really know about tipping or what a proper tip is.  While there may be some truth in this, I personally don't believe that blacks are unclear with tipping.  Let's take a look back to the scatterplot of how blacks tip:

You see all the "tips" that lie on the $0.00 line?  These were stiffs through credit cards, where you pay for the order by credit or debit, and the driver comes to your door with a receipt to sign.  The parts of the receipt you fill out are as follows:

Tip:
Total:
Signature:

There is no way a person could miss that, and whenever I'm handed a receipt that only has the person's signature on it (leaving the tip and total part blank), I always ask them to total it (partly as to push somebody who doesn't want to tip but is "afraid" to put a big zero there to tip, and also for security reasons).  To say, when faced with this, that blacks are ignorant about tipping is absurd.  I'd contend that blacks know full well about tipping, but if anything, may be unclear in how much to tip and what they'd define as a proper tip.  This, then, would more than likely be a cultural factor mixed with being unclear of what a proper tip would be, as I'm sure if I were to tell any of these black customers what a proper tip is, I'd get a stubborn sort of "this is what you get; if you don't like it, don't take it" response.  Indeed, Lynn's suggestion of these people noticing how others tip may influence the blacks that do tip to tip more, but at the same time, I'm skeptical of how much it would work.


Socioeconomic Factors


Besides ignorance of tipping and "cultural factors," the other major school of thought among many in regards to why blacks don't tip / don't tip very well is a matter of socioeconomics.  Poorer people tend to tip worse, and blacks tend to be poorer, thus blacks, as a result, don't tip very well because of that.  Thus, through the same ways you'd help curb black poverty through affirmative action, welfare, and the like, you'd notice an increase of blacks tipping and tipping well.

In my personal opinion, this is nothing but politically correct rubbish.  Even Professor Lynn himself stated that even matters such as socioeconomic factors have little to do with why blacks don't tip as well as the other races.

In the interest of proving this idea wrong, I have took it upon myself to also record the socioeconomic status of every individual I recorded and combined it with tip sizes and races.  Through this, I will show you how while socioeconomic status does have some impact on tip sizes, even among blacks, blacks still lag behind all the other races in every socioeconomic class, thus suggesting that socioeconomic factors are not a reason why blacks tip poorly.

First of all, let's look at how whites and blacks are proportioned via socioeconomic classes.

Observe and compare the two.  They honestly don't look a great deal different, despite the black plurality being in the working class and the white plurality being in the lower-middle class.  This shocked even me, and I'd attribute this to the fact that there is no public housing developments and projects in my area, as well as the fact that my area is very middle class in its feel.  There are far cheaper apartments - around $500 to $600 for a single bedroom apartment - in neighboring areas, but again, if such were true, we'd see blacks more concentrated in the working class than they are anyway.  As a result, what this leads me to believe is that the socioeconomic differences in my delivery area between whites and blacks does not vary as much as I've been led to believe.

At the same time, though, the blacks in the lower-middle class and middle classes may be in the lower rung of those labels than whites and other races, although that argument is flimsy at best considering that in order to be there at all, you'd need to be reasonably well off, which unless they rented the houses, they couldn't be, but I honestly doubt that all of the 117 non-working class blacks I recorded were renting out these houses, and at significantly higher proportions than other races.

Even so, those two pie graphs show that the similarity between whites and blacks in terms of socioeconomic status should be enough to lead one who has no concept of races at all that whites and blacks would tip similarly.  Of course, this is not so.  I will continue to prove how socioeconomic factors is not a factor in why blacks tip poorly for those who are just as skeptical as I am about those two pie graphs through analyzing each of the three classes individually.

The Working Class

Compare the two graphs.  We see the same general trend play out here, although more significantly with whites making up more than 3/4 of all tips by the working class.  Let's also take a look at the scatterplot.

Basically the same things already mentioned, but whites tend to dip lower than $2 fairly often, blacks rarely go above the $2 line (except with a few notable instances, such as the $10 from this one black guy who's pretty cool - he's mentioned to me in the past that he tips as high as he does because he used to be a waiter and wants to "make up" for his race's lack of tipping - more than just non-blacks notice the trend that blacks don't tip very well, too).  We notice Latinos often tipping poorly, and Asians and Indians are hard to make out, but they're more or less along the same line as whites.

All races have averages and medians lower than their overall average and median, as well as higher stiff rates, too, without socioeconomic class taken into consideration.  I won't go through all of them, but I'll note that the most extreme is that working class blacks have a stiff rate of 75.6%!  Far more often than not, you'll walk away with a stiff from a working class black.

The Lower-Middle Class

Again, same trends, but not as extreme as the working class.

A major difference from the working class scatterplot is that for whites, we see the $0 to $2 range being, for the most, cleared.  This indicates that at the lower-middle class, whites don't stiff very much at all, and indeed, the same is true of other races.  For Latinos, we notice the bulk of them hugging the $2 line, as we saw in the scatterplot for Latinos of all socioeconomic classes.  Asians more or less tip like whites only with absolutely no stiffs (Asians have a 0% stiff rate for both the lower-middle class and middle class).  Indians, however, are surprising, for they kind of tip like whites and Asians, but they also dip down into the $0 to $2 range.  I would say they're more like Latinos in terms of tipping, but I don't see them gravitating around any area.  I'd blame this for the lack of Indians I recorded - it would probably look different if I had more.

Lastly, as we've been mainly talking about blacks I'll give them a separate paragraph, blacks have only improved in terms of tipping marginally.  The stiff rate is much lower, and more blacks are in the $1 to $2 range.  This shows that socioeconomic class does have some influence in how people, blacks included, tip, but blacks still tip worse than every other race in the lower-middle class.

The Middle Class

We see more or less the same trends, although, except for blacks, far less dramatic than before.  In fact, this is the first pie graph where Latinos and Indians actually tip greater than their percentage of the socioeconomic class makeup, even if it is only by 1%.

For every race other than blacks, everything seems to be peachy in regards to tipping.  Whites have a 0% stiff rate and Latinos are varying more when they tip higher than $2.  Indians, to a lesser degree, are the same way.

Blacks, on the whole, have a much smaller stiff rate at 25%, which is only around the stiff rates of whites, Latinos, and Indians of the working class.  However, you'll notice that blacks tend to gravitate in between the $1 to $2 when they do tip, although they go higher than that more often in the middle class.  Still, though, compared to all other races, blacks are obviously lagging behind in terms of how they tip.  It should be evident by now that socioeconomic class is not a reason why blacks tip less than the other races.


So What's the Problem?


Ignorance of tipping can't be a major factor of why blacks tip poorly, though it may be a piece of it.  Socioeconomic factors is more than certainly not a part of it, but they do influence tips of all races as a whole.  I mentioned that cultural factors mixed with some ignorance of tipping is a very probable cause of it.  So what could it be?

I have gathered a few good discussions in other forums on the topic from the following URLs:

Blackfolk: Why don't black people know how to tip?

Why do most black people NOT TIP?

Blacks are bad Tippers? Generalise much?

From the first and third URLs, you'll find the majority of the respondents coming from a consumer perspective, and from the second URL, the majority of the respondents are pizza delivery drivers like me.

Reading through such topics and articles, you'll notice some things.  Slaus, the author of the blog in the third URL, posted a recreation of three black guys in the "process" of tipping:


Slaus: $ 40.00 for 3 sammiches, soup, and sodas. They do know it's a damn recession right?
Mike:  Fo realz!! Shiiit man, we gotta start bringing our lunches yo! I'll get the bill this time though. Yall hoes can get the next one.
Cesar: Nigga you make, $180,000 a year. You can cop a couple of sandwiches for the homies.
Slaus: Hell yeah. Pay that bill, biiiiitch.
Mike: : snickers as he reaches for his cash :: Least yall janky ass negroes can do is pay the tip then.
Slaus: Tip should be no less than $8.00 then.  A good 20%
Cesar: Nigga what? 20%??  I aint leaving her no damn 20% tip. That's crazy.
Mike: Fool, 20% is the avg tip. That's $4 each from yall.
Cesar: Nigga, average for white folks and boojie ass niggas like you! She can be cool with 10%, or a bytch need to get another job! Holla

Indeed, this humorous example conveys a view perhaps the simplest of all point of views on why blacks don't tip: because many blacks simply do not care!  In the second URL I gave, you'll notice many posters reflecting that same exact sentiment - that black people are lazy, selfish, always wanting something for nothing, etc.

While this may have some validity, I find that the whole not caring factor often applies to all races, for I find my white stiffers, Latino stiffers, etc. all couldn't give less of a damn about me or the value of the service I provided them.  If one is to make this argument, one needs to establish a compelling reason why blacks would be more inclined to feel this way than other races.  Mixed with cultural factors causing this attitude, I certainly believe that this argument may very well have some validity.  I must admit, though, black stiffers seem to be a lot nicer than stiffers of other races, which leads me to believe that general attitudes toward tipping altogether may be more at play than that.

In the first and third URLs I provided, you'll notice many blacks supporting two things when it comes to not tipping: one is the same arguments that Brits and Aussies will put out that tipping is extortion, a hidden cost like tipping makes no sense, that since they are not obligated to pay more than what's on the bill they will not pay any more than that, etc.  But unlike Brits and Aussies, American blacks do not live in a society where tipping is not the norm.  This argument as to why blacks don't tip could very well be more of a justification for blacks in their own minds to not tip as opposed to the reason why they don't.  Key difference here.

Secondly, you'll also notice blacks talking about how they don't tip simply because servers always treat them like shit and are prejudiced against them, thus they don't tip because they don't deserve it.  If this is indeed the case, then it's a clearly justified reason to not tip, although my own statistics have proven this wrong for, when you take my controls into consideration, they show that blacks don't tip, even when provided with a good service worthy of tipping.

Perhaps the pattern could lead blacks into not tipping, which would make them just as guilty of stereotyping as the servers who served them.  Moreover, I'm inclined to disregard this argument for I get the general sense that many blacks will claim racism when it is, in fact, not really there - rather, something that may, on the surface, appear to be rooted by prejudice against their color, but in reality, having much more to it than that.  You'll notice I mentioned earlier about how Professor Lynn of Cornell University talked about the necessity of informing blacks on the practice of tipping in a very subtle way as to avoid racial lawsuits.  Indeed, the very fact that this topic is a sensitive one and the fact that the only way to really go about any sort of real solution toward it is subtly as opposed to openly due to the fear of the claim of racism (ie. walking on eggshells) reflects that sentiment.

I feel it necessary to remind once again that the collective cannot apply to the individual, just as the individual cannot be applied to the collective.  There are a quite a few great black tippers I've come to meet, although their own instances aren't enough to curb the general rule.  While you cannot approach individual black people with the label that they definitely won't tip, there is quite obviously something going on here.  Discuss.

Replies
UltimateSatisfaction Posted at 7:23 am on Sep. 25, 2008
Well, maybe you should spend more time working and less time making long ass topics and graphs and shit.
jakelong Posted at 3:29 pm on Aug. 26, 2008
Quote: from lsd at 10:57 pm on Aug. 25, 2008

I'm sorry I didn't read your massive post, but did you write this article for school at least?
No he didn't. But he  really should. I think he had a lot of time to kill  
lsd Posted at 10:57 pm on Aug. 25, 2008
I'm sorry I didn't read your massive post, but did you write this article for school at least?
jakelong Posted at 10:15 pm on Aug. 25, 2008
Hey Bud did you read this thread

http://golivewire.com/forums/peer-yaptiiy-support-a.html

its kinda relates to what we talk about individuality.

jakelong Posted at 9:53 pm on Aug. 25, 2008
Quote: from Bud2400 at 10:58 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

 In general, you'll find blacks believe that there is more to a race than just the way one looks and one's heritage.  
But when they talk about it has more to do with things like

- be close to your family like helping your mom, your uncles, your sis, respecting your father etc..
- be loyal to your friends, like not betraying them or cheating them or hurting them
- value hard and honest work even if its manual or badly paid and not put it down
- value black music and black culture and black literature and not put it down and think that european culture is always better.

Think of it like italian culture or irish culture or chinese culture and values. Theres alot of values that immigrants bring that GOOD like being attached to your family and respecting your parents and those get abandoned when they try to "become" american and its not so good.

I bet you gonna say that all the stuff I listed is not seen a lot in blacks right now but they USED to and for blacks that really what "blackness" is about more than anything else. If you read maya angelou or Richard wright you would know that.  

The thing is that the old black tradition and culture is falling apart and the bad stuff that you see is more like the bad area culture.

The other thing that you have to realize youself is that a lot of whites LIKE to think of the bad stuff as black. Like they say that the gangsta rap SELLS better than the good positive rap. Now if you stop and think about the fact that blacks are 12% of the population then ALL the rap thats aroud must be bought by a LOT of whites TOO.

So they are buying that gangsta rap TOO. and if you think that MOST of them dont live in that area it CANT be just because thats "blackness" but its WHAT WHITES think is blackness. Its what they like to THINK blacks are like. They like the music too.  



As a result, when a white person commits a crime, it's only representative of that individual and wherever that individual's beliefs comes from, whereas when a black person does the same, it means something entirely different for this reason.

Not really because  

1. gangsta culture is pretty new when you think about it.  

most black music was gospel and blues and jazz before that. THAT music had NOTHING to do with committing a crime  

2. And yet blacks are always seen as being criminal even back in the 1800s and 1900s when hiphop didn't even exist

3. most crimes back in the 1930s were by the mafia and yet no one today says italian culture = mafia


they don't disassociate themselves from them by saying that he's not "black," when this definition generally comes with so many values associated with it.
Come on man thats a load of crap. they cant say hes not black when he is. But they CAN say he does NOT represent "blackness".  

THAT is true and they say it too.  


Unfortunately, strong unity calls for a dire circumstance that binds a group of people together as a result.
yeah thats true.


Now that legal discrimination is out the window, in order for blacks to remain united, they must perceive racism against them from society at large.
well it DOES exist still.


the unity will remain.  
as I said theres nothing wrong with unity so long as it dont exclude others. You always use the wannabee gangbangers to say "see? unity is bad"

but thats not what unity is about. Its more about comminuity unity and helping your friends and family because fuck they NEED it.

And if you think about it whites could do that TOO with their friends and family a lot more. I seen a lot of old or sick white folks abandoned by their family because they no longer useful. They end up in my hood.


Individuality necessarily leads to a lack of unity for the very nature of it.
Individuality is good but it can also kill community and the feeling that you are responsible for ppl around you and so you forget about ppl in need or ppl who are sick etc... because you are busy "getting ahead" and doing your own thing and cutting your ties to the ppl around you.

Individuality got some good things but its not ALL good.  


I believe in advertising such jobs in areas of a predominantly black population, but I don't believe in giving black applicants more of a priority than anyone else.
i never said you should.


Although getting a job as a pizza delivery driver really isn't difficult so long as you're 18, have a car, and have a decent driving record.
well if you think about the problem most black kids have with getting a clean driving record (because of what we talked before) then you can think why it might be a bit harder for them.


The main concern is just getting blacks to apply more than anything else.  I'd doubt affirmative action would even be needed to correct any balances.
yeah sure.


The idea of being a minority under pressure has a tendency to bind the individuals of that minority together and identify with each other more due to sharing the same problems.  When you're the majority and have stable control of power, such things don't occur to you, and as a result, treating others individually makes sense.
thats the thing. thats why mixed race communities helps remove some of that.  


- Peru is a very interesting country to look into regarding its racial demographics and culture.
yeah thats true!


  I'd argue that the fact that any idea of blackness (ie. a shared set of values) exists will naturally cause some self-segregation for it will lead those who are black to identify more with others who are black as opposed to those who are not.
maybe but i dont think its even conscious like they go look at a reference book or something and say "oh wait tipping is not a black thing so I shouldn't tip"

I bet its more like the way they do things at home and habits and things like that that make it that they not ready and dont know what to tip.  


But it does not apply in a similar way despite the same situation but reversed.  As whites do not generally define races with a shared set of values, while blacks generally do, such analogies don't work.
if they used the word "white trash" in the first place (and they did) then that means they thought there was white values too. Maybe not much any more today but i bet if you talked to a white guy back in the 18th or 19th century he'd say there was "white" values.
Micus Posted at 9:22 pm on Aug. 24, 2008
Quote: from KoopaTroopa at 4:49 am on Aug. 20, 2008

Why are you so obsessed with black people?

The study covers all races. It just so happens that the blacks are the ones who tip like shit.

jakelong Posted at 2:40 pm on Aug. 24, 2008
Quote: from Bud2400 at 10:58 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

men in business suits are often pictured to be white, as opposed to black, Latino, or any other race as it is in reality.
Yeah and THATs a problem too.


 Due to the aversion, if strong enough, they will come to the interview in their own everyday attire.
Yeah they have to learn that they need to dress up for an interview no what the job is.



I've seen this from more than just blacks, too, although I find the casual attire a fair number of young blacks wear to scream ghetto
nah its like you said before they just wear wha they wear everyday and most young ppl do that. I do it too. Somebody though has to hammer in their skull that EVEDRYBODY needs to dress for interview even if its for bagger, low paid job. Its the "rule" whether we like it or not.


We should bear in mind, though, that the vast majority of all blacks get over such silly things by keeping in mind that this is what you do, and indeed, sometimes it doesn't even occur to some.  
why you even claim to know what blacks think or not. I got a lot of black friends and white friends and latino friends and heck if I know what most of them REALLY think half the time.

Stop trying to guess what they think. Spend more time telling them whats the RIGHT thing to do to get a job. Most young ppl ANY race dont have a clue unless SOMEBODY bothers telling them or they find out the hard way.


So it also can't necessarily be ruled out.
Meh I think you make more than what it really is. I dont dress one way because ALL latinos dress that way.

I dress that way because i like it, its comfy and the style is on sale at walmart.


Then why aren't more blacks out there actually attempting this?  
alot of them are but not in the job in whch you interview. I mean come on. its a fucking low paid job for the summer or temporary.

so the real problem is they have to know that EVEN for that job they have to treat it serious and dress nice and not just show up like they got out out of bed.

if you look at the mags I linked to thers plenty of blacks that dress nice and know what to do for interviews for high tech jobs and managing etc...

The thing is those guys are older have a degree etc... by then they KNOW the ropes. before that happens though you not gonna get the best types.

And if you wonder why others dont have that problem im gonna tell you one thing that maybe you dont know: they got FATHERS that tell them. They got teachers that care. they got freinds of the family that show them what to do.

I got no father since i was 10. if I didn't have my mentor you think my mom would EVEN KNOW how im supposed to really dress? She might have said dress clean or proper but the suit and tie part I was told by my mentor. the shaking hand firmly part and the looking in the eye he told me. NO ONE ELSE did.

When you got a father or mentor around that makes the big difference for a guy. I dont say that as excuse. I say it because its a fact.


You're beginning to make the fallacy of creating a rule on the example of a few
yeah but making a rule on the example of many dont work either.


Rather, you're defining blackness based on what you think is good in a black person.  
Thats blackness TOO.

Why ONLY define it on what is bad? As you said its pretty baod and EVERYBODY got a different idea on what it is really.


But do enough do to make such popular stereotypes among blacks unpopular amongst a fair number of black individuals themselves?  
we don't know. at least it EXISTS. if you ask me if its enough to kill all the bad thinking in my area its a hard one.

What you still make the mistake is think that the gang culture MAKES the bad area when its the OTHER WAY AROUND. its the bad area and the bad thiking and the bad influence from REAL gangbangers that create the gang culture. Not ALL blacks are into it.

but a LOT of blacks live in and around where gangs REALLY are.  


Do they actually call for racial integration?  And most importantly, do they still define these black thugs as "black"?
you thinking too much into it.


There's no set of values that makes one "white."
I got some thought on that too.


And if anyone so dares to deviate from this too greatly, they are quite literally casted off as an "oreo," and if they'd try to claim that they're black, many others will simply tell them that they're the white man's sucka, an oreo, or something along those lines.
its because what defined as standrad american is always propped up by whites. its because when you see a man in a suit on TV or movies most of the times hes white. when you see a man in a white collar job he shows up as white in the media. when you see what ppl call a "normal" guy (not a clown or a bad guy) hes a white guy.

Thats why.

Bud2400 Posted at 11:10 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from Krelian393 at 2:38 am on Aug. 23, 2008

Great post, really. I can't believe you took all the time. Was this for a project?

It was actually out of my own general curiousity.  While recording tip sizes, I noticed from personal observation that these stereotypes about black people tipping horribly seems true and wanted to see if it had any legitimacy to it.  It wasn't too difficult to just simply add what race, socioeconomic class, sex, and age group that customer is, too.  The most time consuming part was just putting all the data sets together in a way so that I could make those graphs and properly analyze what I had.  


Perhaps part of it can be chalked up to more frugality on the part of blacks in your area, generally or even specifically when it comes to food. Maybe you would also find that, regardless of their socioeconomic level, they will be more likely to buy bargain food and the like. (Of course, these are just some theories).

It could be a factor, although I don't think it's just my area - this phenomenon appears to be widespread.  More than likely not with the same exact numbers, but the same sort of trend.

I have to admit, though, that cheap and bargain looking customers frequent the Big Three (Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Papa John's) more than smaller, more independent stores or regional chains.  If blacks look for deals more than any other race, it would make sense that they'd choose these places to eat (as I believe that indy stores generally don't have a large black customer base).  Also note tthat the people who are cheap and look for bargains are also people who seem to be less inclined to tip.  I recently had a friend of mine who used to work at Round Table Pizza in the same area as me disagree that my stats never reflected his, and largely because of the different customer bases the two seem to aim to.  So it also helps to keep in mind who owns the store, who the store is advertising to, how many deals it has available in coupons and such, etc.


Do you think they would tip more heavily if the server was black?

Considering that many black servers have complained about the way other blacks tip, I don't think so.  It does not appear to be based on the race of the server.

Bud2400 Posted at 11:01 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from jakelong at 3:51 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

well this thread here is a bit different because it brings up some good points. the whole "blacknes" rants is totally off topic though

I'll admit that this topic has veered from talking about why blacks don't tip (with me suggesting that self-segregation could be a big part of it) to blackness.  It really ought to go back to that, as blackness itself is something complicated enough and worthy of its own topic.


Hey Bud: I did this topic on that last thought.
http://www.golivewire.com/forums/peer-yaptiiy-support-a.html

I put in politics because its a bit more broad than just race.


Okay, I'll look into it when I get more time and energy.

Bud2400 Posted at 10:58 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from jakelong at 12:37 am on Aug. 23, 2008

Its not expressing "blackness" though. I wear baggy pants all the time and lots of latinos wear bandanna. thats not blackness. wearing it to interview though is just stupid thinking.

And I agree with you.  But this doesn't mean that the idiots who do this aren't doing it to assert their identity of who they are.  Likely, it means other things, such as some perception of being "cool," which could also be mixed in with being black.

I'm not trying to make this argument simple by saying blackness = ignorance, and blah blah.  It's far more complicated than that, though I'm at a loss of words for what's on my mind, so I will (and have been trying) to convey it to you as best as I can.


no it says that fuck is just clueless or wants to provoke you.

Perhaps it's partially out of cluelessness, but I doubt it's to provoke me (what would be the point of that?).  I personally think it's more of an aversion to wearing more formal attire, and I can certainly understand that being a little weary of such things myself.  I hypothesize that it's aversive to many black individuals more so than other races because they generally don't identify with themselves in a formal suit, and often times, men in business suits are often pictured to be white, as opposed to black, Latino, or any other race as it is in reality.  Due to the aversion, if strong enough, they will come to the interview in their own everyday attire.  I've seen this from more than just blacks, too, although I find the casual attire a fair number of young blacks wear to scream ghetto, for that's the current fad, which is generally much more unprofessional than the casual attire whites and other races wear.

We should bear in mind, though, that the vast majority of all blacks get over such silly things by keeping in mind that this is what you do, and indeed, sometimes it doesn't even occur to some.  Either way, how one dresses doesn't reflect any sense of "blackness" unless they attempt to make it reflect that.  And that's really the whole point of clothes - to signal what sort of group or individual you are.  Your identity.  So it also can't necessarily be ruled out.


Nope asserting your identity as black is wearing a good suit and a good tie and looking at you straight in the eye and shaking your hand firmly and expecting you to treat him with respect and calling him "sir" and thanking him politely.

Then why aren't more blacks out there actually attempting this?  After all, if that's what's in for blacks to do, then why is it that many don't?  Just going out and talking to the blacks I meet around me, I can see that this ideal isn't very spot on.  Getting money and respect certainly is, but it certainly doesn't appear to be through such methods.

You're beginning to make the fallacy of creating a rule on the example of a few, and while it's an attempt for the positive, hopeless optimism isn't what I care to hear.


THATs REAL blackness. it says "Im black and Im proud and thats why I wear something that stupid racists cant even object to and if they find some fault then they showed their colors".

Rather, you're defining blackness based on what you think is good in a black person.  What blackness is isn't what you want it to be.  It's the collective and shared set of values and ideals by blacks, and it goes a great deal into defining who is actually "black" and who is "not," despite being a part of the same race.  This is key.


They do.

http://www.blackenterprise.com/

http://www.tnj.com/

http://www.blackitprofessional.com/


But do enough do to make such popular stereotypes among blacks unpopular amongst a fair number of black individuals themselves?  Do they actually call for racial integration?  And most importantly, do they still define these black thugs as "black"?

While whites will still define white thugs as "white," you must keep in mind what these definitions entail.  As a whole, you'll notice that blacks and whites generally define what a race is differently.  Go check out anywhere in this forum where a white person talks about what a race constitutes.  They'll generally simply refer to one's color of skin, heritage, etc. and no more, no less.  There's no set of values that makes one "white."

Now go see what a black person has to say.  In general, you'll find blacks believe that there is more to a race than just the way one looks and one's heritage.  They'll generally define it as also being "true" (and that'll vary among many blacks themselves) to their heritage.  With this comes a set of general values amongst blacks, which many will accept, and many will reject.  Not every value will be displayed by every black person, mind you, but it all serves to create a very different feel among blacks than any other race.  And if anyone so dares to deviate from this too greatly, they are quite literally casted off as an "oreo," and if they'd try to claim that they're black, many others will simply tell them that they're the white man's sucka, an oreo, or something along those lines.

As a result, when a white person commits a crime, it's only representative of that individual and wherever that individual's beliefs comes from, whereas when a black person does the same, it means something entirely different for this reason.  Other blacks may say he's a fool, but they don't disassociate themselves from them by saying that he's not "black," when this definition generally comes with so many values associated with it.

Also as a result, "whiteness" is the broadest context simply does not exist on a wide scale.  You'll find it among more race conscious white nationalist communities, but beyond there, values are generally not associated with races as far as whites are concerned.


yeah they can still be united. just united to do something good thats all. and unite themselves with others too. and the smart ones do that TOO.

Unfortunately, strong unity calls for a dire circumstance that binds a group of people together as a result.  Now that legal discrimination is out the window, in order for blacks to remain united, they must perceive racism against them from society at large.  It's easy to do given the way much of society dislikes the way many black youths conform to idiotic stereotypes against black people to assert their black identity, as well as the fact that blacks as a whole are poorer than most other races.

So long as the idea that the suffering blacks have endured cannot be compared to the suffering homosexuals, Latinos, Asians, or even whites have endured prevails, the unity will remain.  The day it dies and many blacks drop the idea that with a race comes a set of values, the unity will die as many blacks will begin viewing the era of today as different from the past where the same ties with other blacks no longer apply as a result, and begin to see other blacks more as individuals.  Individuality necessarily leads to a lack of unity for the very nature of it.  I've explained this to you before, I'm pretty sure.
 


WEll sometimes you gotta give the idea out a bit better. I mean usually that stuff is word of mouth anyway. like one guy gets the job then tells his buddies. I mean a campaign to hire out drivers in the places where ppl have trouble finding jobs dont sound like a bad idea anyway.

I believe in advertising such jobs in areas of a predominantly black population, but I don't believe in giving black applicants more of a priority than anyone else.

But at the same time, perhaps it could help.  Although getting a job as a pizza delivery driver really isn't difficult so long as you're 18, have a car, and have a decent driving record.  The main concern is just getting blacks to apply more than anything else.  I'd doubt affirmative action would even be needed to correct any balances.


yeah theres some problem with that. but think also this way. when white ppl live in africa they also try to "keep their seperate" identity also. They also try to keep apart. same with the british when they lived in india or china. They kept to themselves and kept their "culture" and tried not to mix with the majority.

And you are indeed correct.  The idea of being a minority under pressure has a tendency to bind the individuals of that minority together and identify with each other more due to sharing the same problems.  When you're the majority and have stable control of power, such things don't occur to you, and as a result, treating others individually makes sense.


The spanish had race problems too but they were more willing to mix with the ppl they colonized. thats why in Mexico and south america you dont see as much of seperation of race. they integrated with the native americans and blacks. and so the culture there still has some spanish of course but also other cultures. and now ppl use that against mexicans and hate us because they dont think us as white.

It really depends on the Spanish country we're speaking of, but in Mexico, that's correct.  In the more tropical regions, less Europeans colonized the area, making the people there look more native / black than those of Mexico.  And then you look at Peru where very little intermixing occurred and the whites there are as white as the whites in the US and the natives are still "pure" (a big reason why Quechua is the most widely spoken Native American language today).

But in general, given the large mestizo populations with integration, you see a more unified Latin American culture than you do among the different, somewhat self-segregated races in the US today.  Although there are exceptions - Peru is a very interesting country to look into regarding its racial demographics and culture.


thats the thing though. blackness is pretty broad.

And that's essentially our main problem.  But what blackness really is doesn't matter a whole lot to our original discussion.  What we were originally discussing is whether blacks self-segregate more than the other races and if that may contribute to their collective dramatically different tipping habits.  I'd argue that the fact that any idea of blackness (ie. a shared set of values) exists will naturally cause some self-segregation for it will lead those who are black to identify more with others who are black as opposed to those who are not.  If extreme enough, it can encourage racially homogeneous groups.


and when we talk of "white trash" we talk of the negative trait of whiteness... (racism, ignorance, laziness etc...)

But it does not apply in a similar way despite the same situation but reversed.  As whites do not generally define races with a shared set of values, while blacks generally do, such analogies don't work.

SpRiNgS Posted at 3:54 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from jakelong at 3:51 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

well this thread here is a bit different because it brings up some good points. the whole "blacknes" rants is totally off topic though

the threads from kidd ruin those pretty much all belong in the toilet


agreed to the fullest

he's like your prototypical troll

jakelong Posted at 3:51 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
well this thread here is a bit different because it brings up some good points. the whole "blacknes" rants is totally off topic though

the threads from kidd ruin those pretty much all belong in the toilet

SpRiNgS Posted at 3:39 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from jakelong at 3:38 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

Quote: from Springs at 2:47 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

like most folks put ignorance=blackness like it's that pervasive
yeah its a bit like saying "whiteness" is all about being a trailer trash with a wife beater drinking beer all day and trowing stones at blacks.

pretty much

we should add topics like that to the list of topics that shouldn't be mad eanymore int he race forum

jakelong Posted at 3:38 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from Springs at 2:47 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

like most folks put ignorance=blackness like it's that pervasive
yeah its a bit like saying "whiteness" is all about being a trailer trash with a wife beater drinking beer all day and trowing stones at blacks.  
SpRiNgS Posted at 2:47 pm on Aug. 23, 2008
Quote: from jakelong at 1:44 pm on Aug. 23, 2008

Quote: from Springs at 2:33 am on Aug. 23, 2008on the subject of wearing baggy pants to an interview  

 that's not 'blackness'  

 that's being fucking retarded  
 BIG difference [ote] exactly. imean really i dont get what crazy stuff put under "blackness"


seems like most folks put ignorance=blackness like it's that pervasive
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