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-- Posted by Bud2400 at 4:51 am on Aug. 19, 2008 A word on tipping before I get started: I know you Brits and Aussies out there have something against tipping, so let me say this. Tips are more than just something to reward extra good service in the United States - in the US, tips are expected. This is mainly due to employers cutting their labor costs and letting their customers cover that. It might seem like an atrocious thing for an employer to do, but it's really not that bad when you think about it. Consider this. Somebody has to cover the cost of labor one way or another, and the customer is always the one who has to pay for that. Whether there's an auto gratuity or an optional, but culturally expected gratuity, the cost is being covered in some way - the only difference between the US and Australia & the UK is that in the US, you actually have the option to choose what how much of a gratuity you think is worth the service your server gave you and whether or not you want to pay for that service at all provided that it was horrible and / or the server offended you. Theoretically, this will make your server want to serve you to the best of their abilities given that incentive. In the UK and Australia, that option is non-existent with an auto-gratuity, nor is that incentive for the server to do their best there either. In the face of rising national minimum wages in the US, you can be sure that any server whose state is being effected by the rise is not being given that raise - rather, most employers simply keep their employees at the same wage they've always been giving them, now at a sub-minimum wage. Not tipping for perfectly good service (ie. a "stiff") is, to most professions that rely on tips, a cheap way to save your money by hurting the income of your server. You might say "get a new job" or "complain to your employer about it," but in the US, the employer is not the one who is responsible for distributing the cost of labor - the consumer is, and stiffing in the US is therefore an abuse of that system. Another thing to note. This is going to be a very long post, full of graphs and analysis, and a very worthy read, I think. If you don't want to read it all and only respond to the prompt "why do black people tend to not tip?" then go ahead and skip all that. The rest of everything I'm going to be writing about is only to prove to the assertion I made in the prompt, and a few other things that I'm sure people will list as reasons why. However, do keep one thing in mind. The individual does not apply to the collective and the collective does not apply to the individual. In other words, you cannot use a stereotype to define a single person, neither can you define a stereotype using a single person. The two influence each other no doubt, thus why we say there's a "tendency," but it always helps to bear this in mind when talking about broad generalities like this. Do not mistake a tendency as something that applies to all people, for the very definition of a tendency requires that not all people follow the tendency exactly as it is. Onto my actual race survey. After starting delivering pizzas June of last year, I began noticing a peculiar trend - to put it bluntly, that black people have a tendency to not tip you for perfectly good service (ie., again, a stiff), or when they do, the tip is usually pretty pathetic. As a result, I created a list of addresses who didn't tip me, or tipped me very poorly (as in less than 5% of the total bill) so if they ever ordered from us again, I would be able to catch that and prioritize them last for other deliveries that do tip. You pay the minimum, you get the minimum. That's how I've always seen it. Scanning through these entries on the list, I thought to myself, "Good God, how many of these customers are black and how many are not?" I vaguely remember the appearance of some of my customers, but I usually forget about most. However, when I think about my great nights where I made a killing in tips, I think about the customers I served and I see white faces, some Asian, and perhaps even a Latino here and there. On my worst nights? Blacks. Indeed, I'm not the only person to see this - throughout the service industry, the stereotype that blacks don't tip and is not worth your time to serve properly is widespread. While stereotypes are stereotypes, stereotypes just don't pop up from out of nothing. So I decided to investigate this matter for myself - through a race tipping survey I made, so that I can actually see how the different races tip, as well as note a few other variables, and see how much they support such stereotypes. First of all, what are the controls? The first control is that all deliveries recorded must be delivered early or on time in 45 minutes or less. This ensures that all customers should be satisfied with the service I provide them. Things like how I park, how I smile, etc. are irrelevent in my mind, mainly because I honestly do not vary a whole lot regarding that. If there's any reason why my service would be subpar (such as being late, forgetting an item for some reason, etc., the delivery is not recorded. The second control is that the total amount, after sales tax (9%ish here) and the delivery charge, must be in between $20 and $35. Tips in between these amounts do not vary a whole lot; you are about as likely to get a $3 tip from a $20 order as you are from a $30 order. Despite my defining good and bad tips by percentages (which I only really use to denote the shitty tips and for large ($50+) orders), most people who order pizza delivery tip on a flat rate. Tip Size Tip size is exactly what the name suggests - the size of the tip. A stiff is considered to be anything less than $1. So $0.99 or less, or "keep the change," is considered a stiff. Shitty / pathetic tips are considered to be around $1 to $2 for the order amounts we're considering, although there are drivers and other servers out there who would regard anything less than $2 no matter what the order amount was as a shitty tip. Race This is the central focus of this study and I've divided the races up by the five I notice most in my area: Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Asians (as in East or Southeast Asians), and Indians (as in East Indians from South Asia - not Native Americans). One should keep in mind that as a social construct, races are very loosely defined. While the most extreme examples of a race are very easily defined (as in the whitest of people, the blackest of people, etc.), those on the fringe of those labels are a little more difficult to define. Latinos in particular are a sticky issue, for Latino really isn't even a "race," but rather, more of a group. Even the whitest of people could be considered to be Latino. And those of two or more races will probably be mistaken as a single race depending on which they resemble more (I have no way of seeing who's a mixed person or not). Although mixed people are in the minority, and for the purposes of this survey, my definitions and how I go about labeling who's what should be sufficient. Socioeconomic Class This is another central variable I'll be looking at in this survey. I have divided socioeconomic class by 5 different labels, and only 3 of which really exist in my area. They are as follows: - The Section 8 / Public Housing Development class. In other words, the impoverished. As the name of this class should suggest, these are the type of people you would find in public housing developments and projects. Fortunately for me, none of that exists in my delivery area, so disregard this class. - The working class. These are the people who live in apartments or trailer homes. Anybody who I deliver to that lives in an apartment or a trailer home is assigned to this class. The rents for a single bedroom apartment in my area go from around $750 to $1250 a month. - The lower-middle class. These are the people who live in condos, townhouses, and low income housing (which, around here, would be about $300,000 or less). - The middle class. These are the people who live in moderate houses in typical suburbia. Middle class homes are usually around $400,000 to $600,000 in my delivery area. - The upper middle class. These are the people who live in fairly spacious and lavish homes in your typical suburbia. The price on these houses are usually over $800,000 in my area. Very few of these houses exist where I deliver to and I haven't recorded any pizza that I delivered to a place like this, so disregard this class. There could also be a 6th class, the upper class, but certainly none of those types of houses exist in my area. Do remember that like races, lumping homes into a single label may not necessarily tell the whole story, as many are on the fringe of the prices I gave. However, like with races, the way I've labeled them should be sufficient for the survey. Age Not very important since I didn't analyze it, but pretty obvious - does the person look like they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s, etc.? Obviously, this is probably the one variable where I could easily misjudge a person on, and part of the reason why I haven't really felt motivated to analyze it. Sex Are you a boy or are you girl? Pretty obvious, and while it would be interesting to analyze, I'm just too tired after analyzing race and socioeconomic class. And if you're worried about me misjudging a person on this, don't worry - I won't record the people who I have no idea what sex they are! For those of you who don't know, I live and deliver in a suburb of Seattle - so you can expect to see lots of whites (which the Pacific Northwest is composed more predominantly of than certain other areas in the United States), as well as significant numbers of Asians like any West Coast city. There are somewhere around 128,000 people that reside in my delivery area - this does not include those who work there, which would drive the number up even further, although I didn't record business deliveries for the fact that I'd have a much more difficult time assessing the socioeconomic status of the person I'd be delivering to. Consider the pie graph of the racial makeup on my area and compare it to the pie graph of the racial makeup of the 1000 deliveries I recorded. Notice a few changes? The most obvious is that blacks shot up from 8% to 20% of the racial makeup, thereby "increasing" by 250%. Latinos also raised, though less noticeably, from 6% to 10%. Why these changes occurred is hard to say, though I'd claim that pizza is a food item that blacks and Latinos enjoy and eat quite a bit of - certainly more than whites, who also eat pizza quite a bit, but obviously not enough in the face of the increased demand from blacks and Latinos, and thus as a result, dropped from 70% to 62%. Asians also dropped quite noticeably, from 13% to 6%, largely because I believe pizza is not a typical food item Asians usually eat. Now observe that and compare it to this next pie graph, which shows the percentage each race contributed to my total tips after 1000 deliveries: See a few changes? One of the most noticeable changes is the fact that blacks dropped from 20% back to 8%, which should suggest that despite their significant makeup of the customer base, blacks do not tip very well at all. Latinos, too, also dropped, but only by 1%, which is fairly negligible. The other most noticeable change is the fact that whites went from 62% to 73%! This should suggest that in the face of face of a lack of tips from blacks, the tips from whites makes up a greater percentage of all tips and thus the percentage of tips from whites becomes a lot larger than their share of the customer base. This, obviously, means that whites tip, and they tip rather well. Asians, too, increased, although only by 2%. Despite that, for their small makeup of the customer base, this is very significant. The main reason why whites increased so much is mainly because they make up far more of the customer base than Asians - about 624 total for whites, and 55 for Asians. So this should suggest that Asians, like whites, tip very well also. And the last group, Indians, which makes up the smallest percentage of the customer base, did not change at all in percentage to how much they contributed to the sum of all my tips. This should suggest that Indians tip moderately and consistently. Whites For these next set of graphs, I will be using scatter plots. I will also show you the mean (average), median (middle number), mode (most frequent number), and the stiff rate (the percentage of how many stiffs I received from a particular race, suggesting how likely it is, with all other factors aside, that I will be stiffed by a member of that race). The total number of whites I recorded was 624, or about 62.4% of the customer base. Mean: $3.26 If you were to stereotype whites on how they tip based on the graph, what would you say? From my perspective, most whites tip in between $2 and $5, although there's quite a few tipping above or below that. Whites, overall, seem to be all over the place, and as I present how the other races tip, you'll notice that nobody varies as much as whites. As a result, it's honestly very difficult to assume what a tip from a white customer would be, although given the average and even higher median, it's obvious that tips from whites overall will be remembered as good tips. Though the stiff rate is 8.7%, the other things will usually make up for it and thus most drivers and servers remember white customers as the "better" customers in terms of tips. Considering how readily Americans recognize race before all other attributes to an individual, it should be no surprise that given the statistics, whites are stereotyped as such, rather than how much they vary which would be more accurate. Blacks Mean: $1.11 Just by comparing the two graphs, the way blacks tip is extremely different from whites. Given their extraordinarily high stiff rate, the fact that their median is a stiff and much lower than the average tip, and that the most frequently occurring tip is zilch, it shouldn't be a surprise at all that drivers and servers stereotype blacks as the "worst" customers as far as tipping goes. Moreover, unlike whites, there isn't nearly as much variance among blacks, which makes such stereotypes much easier to make and support. Latinos Mean: $2.30 Notice how a lot of the tips hug the $2 line. This is essentially how most drivers and servers would define how Latinos tip - not as good as whites, but at least they tip, making them "better" than blacks. They also vary a lot more and aren't predominantly stiffs (despite their fairly high 14.7% stiff rate), so it's much easier to stereotype Latinos as "okay" tippers; not good, but also not horrible. Many drivers and servers would disagree with that stereotype I created, which also suggests to me that the Latinos in my area are a little different from other areas. Considering that most of the Latinos who don't reside in major cities or near the Mexican-American border are often richer, and thus more integrated, than usual, this would make sense. Asians Mean: $3.74 Asians, like whites, tend to vary a lot, although they also seem to hang around the $4 line more or less, too. While one could say that Asians tip like whites, one will also notice how Asians are much more consistent than whites overall, considering their low stiff rate (the lowest out of them all), creating much higher means, medians, and modes for them. If one were to stereotype how Asians tip, saying that they tip like whites but rarely stiff would be accurate given these results. Indians Mean: $2.55 Anything I have on Indians will be sketchy at best considering that I only recorded 24 Indians total. What surprise me most about Indians is their stiff rate of 12.5%. In the past, I always described Indians as tipping like Asians, but usually less money. One could still say that, but also that Indians also stiff more, which would, in turn, make them more like Latino tippers, but not quite. They're consistent for the most part, though, and given how their averages and median tips aren't bad, most people will stereotype them as all right, although, like with Latinos, not everyone is inclined to agree with me there either. Blacks, by far, make up the majority of all stiffs. This isn't even including the tips between $1 and $2. When blacks make up 195 of all 1000 deliveries and whites make up 624 of all 1000 deliveries, yet the black stiff rate is almost twice in absolute numbers than whites, there's obviously something at play here. Let's observe the stiff rates of each race, which I have already mentioned, but not provided a graph for. Looking at these stiff rates, blacks are the outlying group. As far as tipping goes, something different from all other races influences blacks to tip less / not tip at all. Even if you don't agree with tipping, the fact that blacks are so different in regards to how they collectively tip should indicate that there's something wrong. I'm certainly not the only person to have noticed or looked at the issue before. A Cornell professor named Michael Lynn has written some interesting things about this issue here, which you need Adobe to view as it's a PDF file: http://people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf Lynn, an associate professor of marketing, analyzes how the lack of tips from blacks not only the servers they stiff / tip poorly, but how the stereotype is created which leads servers to treat blacks with less courtesy, and also, how this inhibits sitdown restaurants from expanding into predominantly black areas for bad tips not only creates a very high turnover rate of servers, but also how blacks as a result of their treatment, will be less inclined to return to the restaurant. What Lynn suggests is the underlying problem is that blacks are simply uninformed about tipping and what a proper tip is. Indeed, he highlights how blacks, when they do tip, tip on a flat rate as opposed to on a percentage like most whites. Thus Lynn suggests that it would be in these restaurants' best interests to advertise tipping to blacks, though very subtly as to avoid racial lawsuits. Lynn's problem, however, is that he assumes that the majority of blacks don't really know about tipping or what a proper tip is. While there may be some truth in this, I personally don't believe that blacks are unclear with tipping. Let's take a look back to the scatterplot of how blacks tip: You see all the "tips" that lie on the $0.00 line? These were stiffs through credit cards, where you pay for the order by credit or debit, and the driver comes to your door with a receipt to sign. The parts of the receipt you fill out are as follows: Tip: There is no way a person could miss that, and whenever I'm handed a receipt that only has the person's signature on it (leaving the tip and total part blank), I always ask them to total it (partly as to push somebody who doesn't want to tip but is "afraid" to put a big zero there to tip, and also for security reasons). To say, when faced with this, that blacks are ignorant about tipping is absurd. I'd contend that blacks know full well about tipping, but if anything, may be unclear in how much to tip and what they'd define as a proper tip. This, then, would more than likely be a cultural factor mixed with being unclear of what a proper tip would be, as I'm sure if I were to tell any of these black customers what a proper tip is, I'd get a stubborn sort of "this is what you get; if you don't like it, don't take it" response. Indeed, Lynn's suggestion of these people noticing how others tip may influence the blacks that do tip to tip more, but at the same time, I'm skeptical of how much it would work. In my personal opinion, this is nothing but politically correct rubbish. Even Professor Lynn himself stated that even matters such as socioeconomic factors have little to do with why blacks don't tip as well as the other races. In the interest of proving this idea wrong, I have took it upon myself to also record the socioeconomic status of every individual I recorded and combined it with tip sizes and races. Through this, I will show you how while socioeconomic status does have some impact on tip sizes, even among blacks, blacks still lag behind all the other races in every socioeconomic class, thus suggesting that socioeconomic factors are not a reason why blacks tip poorly. First of all, let's look at how whites and blacks are proportioned via socioeconomic classes. Observe and compare the two. They honestly don't look a great deal different, despite the black plurality being in the working class and the white plurality being in the lower-middle class. This shocked even me, and I'd attribute this to the fact that there is no public housing developments and projects in my area, as well as the fact that my area is very middle class in its feel. There are far cheaper apartments - around $500 to $600 for a single bedroom apartment - in neighboring areas, but again, if such were true, we'd see blacks more concentrated in the working class than they are anyway. As a result, what this leads me to believe is that the socioeconomic differences in my delivery area between whites and blacks does not vary as much as I've been led to believe. At the same time, though, the blacks in the lower-middle class and middle classes may be in the lower rung of those labels than whites and other races, although that argument is flimsy at best considering that in order to be there at all, you'd need to be reasonably well off, which unless they rented the houses, they couldn't be, but I honestly doubt that all of the 117 non-working class blacks I recorded were renting out these houses, and at significantly higher proportions than other races. Even so, those two pie graphs show that the similarity between whites and blacks in terms of socioeconomic status should be enough to lead one who has no concept of races at all that whites and blacks would tip similarly. Of course, this is not so. I will continue to prove how socioeconomic factors is not a factor in why blacks tip poorly for those who are just as skeptical as I am about those two pie graphs through analyzing each of the three classes individually. The Working Class Compare the two graphs. We see the same general trend play out here, although more significantly with whites making up more than 3/4 of all tips by the working class. Let's also take a look at the scatterplot. Basically the same things already mentioned, but whites tend to dip lower than $2 fairly often, blacks rarely go above the $2 line (except with a few notable instances, such as the $10 from this one black guy who's pretty cool - he's mentioned to me in the past that he tips as high as he does because he used to be a waiter and wants to "make up" for his race's lack of tipping - more than just non-blacks notice the trend that blacks don't tip very well, too). We notice Latinos often tipping poorly, and Asians and Indians are hard to make out, but they're more or less along the same line as whites. All races have averages and medians lower than their overall average and median, as well as higher stiff rates, too, without socioeconomic class taken into consideration. I won't go through all of them, but I'll note that the most extreme is that working class blacks have a stiff rate of 75.6%! Far more often than not, you'll walk away with a stiff from a working class black. The Lower-Middle Class Again, same trends, but not as extreme as the working class. A major difference from the working class scatterplot is that for whites, we see the $0 to $2 range being, for the most, cleared. This indicates that at the lower-middle class, whites don't stiff very much at all, and indeed, the same is true of other races. For Latinos, we notice the bulk of them hugging the $2 line, as we saw in the scatterplot for Latinos of all socioeconomic classes. Asians more or less tip like whites only with absolutely no stiffs (Asians have a 0% stiff rate for both the lower-middle class and middle class). Indians, however, are surprising, for they kind of tip like whites and Asians, but they also dip down into the $0 to $2 range. I would say they're more like Latinos in terms of tipping, but I don't see them gravitating around any area. I'd blame this for the lack of Indians I recorded - it would probably look different if I had more. Lastly, as we've been mainly talking about blacks I'll give them a separate paragraph, blacks have only improved in terms of tipping marginally. The stiff rate is much lower, and more blacks are in the $1 to $2 range. This shows that socioeconomic class does have some influence in how people, blacks included, tip, but blacks still tip worse than every other race in the lower-middle class. The Middle Class We see more or less the same trends, although, except for blacks, far less dramatic than before. In fact, this is the first pie graph where Latinos and Indians actually tip greater than their percentage of the socioeconomic class makeup, even if it is only by 1%. For every race other than blacks, everything seems to be peachy in regards to tipping. Whites have a 0% stiff rate and Latinos are varying more when they tip higher than $2. Indians, to a lesser degree, are the same way. Blacks, on the whole, have a much smaller stiff rate at 25%, which is only around the stiff rates of whites, Latinos, and Indians of the working class. However, you'll notice that blacks tend to gravitate in between the $1 to $2 when they do tip, although they go higher than that more often in the middle class. Still, though, compared to all other races, blacks are obviously lagging behind in terms of how they tip. It should be evident by now that socioeconomic class is not a reason why blacks tip less than the other races. I have gathered a few good discussions in other forums on the topic from the following URLs: Blackfolk: Why don't black people know how to tip? Why do most black people NOT TIP? Blacks are bad Tippers? Generalise much? From the first and third URLs, you'll find the majority of the respondents coming from a consumer perspective, and from the second URL, the majority of the respondents are pizza delivery drivers like me. Reading through such topics and articles, you'll notice some things. Slaus, the author of the blog in the third URL, posted a recreation of three black guys in the "process" of tipping:
Indeed, this humorous example conveys a view perhaps the simplest of all point of views on why blacks don't tip: because many blacks simply do not care! In the second URL I gave, you'll notice many posters reflecting that same exact sentiment - that black people are lazy, selfish, always wanting something for nothing, etc. While this may have some validity, I find that the whole not caring factor often applies to all races, for I find my white stiffers, Latino stiffers, etc. all couldn't give less of a damn about me or the value of the service I provided them. If one is to make this argument, one needs to establish a compelling reason why blacks would be more inclined to feel this way than other races. Mixed with cultural factors causing this attitude, I certainly believe that this argument may very well have some validity. I must admit, though, black stiffers seem to be a lot nicer than stiffers of other races, which leads me to believe that general attitudes toward tipping altogether may be more at play than that. In the first and third URLs I provided, you'll notice many blacks supporting two things when it comes to not tipping: one is the same arguments that Brits and Aussies will put out that tipping is extortion, a hidden cost like tipping makes no sense, that since they are not obligated to pay more than what's on the bill they will not pay any more than that, etc. But unlike Brits and Aussies, American blacks do not live in a society where tipping is not the norm. This argument as to why blacks don't tip could very well be more of a justification for blacks in their own minds to not tip as opposed to the reason why they don't. Key difference here. Secondly, you'll also notice blacks talking about how they don't tip simply because servers always treat them like shit and are prejudiced against them, thus they don't tip because they don't deserve it. If this is indeed the case, then it's a clearly justified reason to not tip, although my own statistics have proven this wrong for, when you take my controls into consideration, they show that blacks don't tip, even when provided with a good service worthy of tipping. Perhaps the pattern could lead blacks into not tipping, which would make them just as guilty of stereotyping as the servers who served them. Moreover, I'm inclined to disregard this argument for I get the general sense that many blacks will claim racism when it is, in fact, not really there - rather, something that may, on the surface, appear to be rooted by prejudice against their color, but in reality, having much more to it than that. You'll notice I mentioned earlier about how Professor Lynn of Cornell University talked about the necessity of informing blacks on the practice of tipping in a very subtle way as to avoid racial lawsuits. Indeed, the very fact that this topic is a sensitive one and the fact that the only way to really go about any sort of real solution toward it is subtly as opposed to openly due to the fear of the claim of racism (ie. walking on eggshells) reflects that sentiment. I feel it necessary to remind once again that the collective cannot apply to the individual, just as the individual cannot be applied to the collective. There are a quite a few great black tippers I've come to meet, although their own instances aren't enough to curb the general rule. While you cannot approach individual black people with the label that they definitely won't tip, there is quite obviously something going on here. Discuss.
-- Posted by Jackiev224 at 4:52 am on Aug. 19, 2008 wow. its probably cuz there broke. i mean dont get me wrong im black too but to heck w. it. they need money so they spare enought for themsevles and no1 else
-- Posted by Sudo XE at 4:52 am on Aug. 19, 2008 cuz we rude like that
-- Posted by scalywag66 at 4:53 am on Aug. 19, 2008 lol I dont agree with all that
-- Posted by Pdiamond at 4:53 am on Aug. 19, 2008 as being a person who only read up to where you said " This is going to be a very long post, full of graphs and analysis..." im just going to go ahead ans say, more people should tip.
-- Posted by atarisrocks at 4:55 am on Aug. 19, 2008 food is so expensive now that going out for a meal gonna put you back alot so why stretch you limited money on giving a tip.
-- Posted by Addicted 2 Candy at 4:58 am on Aug. 19, 2008 cause no one cares bout tiping
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:03 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Pdiamond at 4:53 am on Aug. 19, 2008
On the other hand, as Professor Lynn pointed out, Americans despise auto-gratuities and wind up avoiding businesses that use them since if this was ever implemented here, delivery charges would likely increase by $5. Perhaps in the United States it's not the best of ideas, and certainly for other tipping professions like bartending, serving, etc., it can't be done at all. All in all, I'd simply like to see black people tipping like the other races, as opposed to tipping like shit. This only reinforces negative images and stereotypes against them, especially in regards to blacks being cheap welfare leeching scum. I personally don't hold that view, but I do know quite a few who do as a result of the way blacks, as a whole, tip.
-- Posted by rawrr at 5:05 am on Aug. 19, 2008 You might want to add that in the state of california they take 3% of the total bill (i am not sure if it includes the tip as well) and the server has to pay that to a tip share to the bus boys, takeaway, and hosts.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:10 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from rawrr at 5:05 am on Aug. 19, 2008
Since I'm a pizza delivery driver, I won't speak on behalf of the restaurant industry, though I do know as much of what I said. At least for pizza delivery, it's fairly uniform, at least among the Big 3 (Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Papa John's). Independent and smaller chains tend to differ somewhat slightly, too. Either way, it's obviously a good idea to tip everywhere, even outside of the United States in countries where tipping is not the norm. Tipping Americans is one of the major reasons why foreigners love American tourists so much (in the industries that benefit from the tipping, that is).
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:15 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from scalywag66 at 4:53 am on Aug. 19, 2008
For those who don't agree and don't want to read everything, I'll make it short and quick. Observe: And try to tell me that black people collectively tip like whites and other races.
-- Posted by Wakeupcall at 5:17 am on Aug. 19, 2008 I'm English, and have worked as a waitor for a while. I don't know whether your graph is simply for the US, but unless you really (unnecessarily) looked in to it like that, black people and their tipping isn't at the foremost of my problems. I simply looked at the people tipping, rather than their race. What point are you trying to prove? Other than trying to alienate the black people, for yet another thing. I don't really see this as anything but trying to pigeon hole an entire race, so that people look a bit more suspiciously at them when they walk in to a restaurant. Pathetic.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:24 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Wakeupcall at 5:17 am on Aug. 19, 2008
It's data I've collected in my own delivery area, so yes, it's US specific only. More specifically, Seattle area specific. I try to look at it like that, too. I've mentioned throughout that monster of a post that Americans see things in terms of race far too much. But you know, when you notice a certain group of people not tipping you like everybody else, looking for reasons - more specifically their own characteristics - as to why they don't tip you is quite natural.
So you're accusing me of alienating black people simply because I have shown that they, as a whole, tip like shit compared to other races? I've mentioned an anecdote of where some black people have tipped me great amounts, such as this one gentleman who tipped me $10 and told me that he tips as much as he does because he was once a waiter, knows how black people as a whole tip, and wants to "make up" for them. Your accusations of me trying to alienate an entire group of people are unfounded. If I tried that, I wouldn't taken any care to mention that these are merely general tendencies, and that such rules cannot be applied to individuals so easily. If such happens through reading my post, that is the fault of the reader, not my own. I'm merely trying to highlight an issue, show that my claims exist, and talk about it openly.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:25 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Wakeupcall at 5:17 am on Aug. 19, 2008
I suggest taking some time to find out what exactly I'm talking about and what my positions are before trying to attack me.
-- Posted by Wakeupcall at 5:27 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Bud2400 at 5:24 am on Aug. 19, 2008
Why? What's the point? What kind of dipshit are you? There IS NO ISSUE. There is no point to this post. I see it as racist and unnecessary.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:30 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Wakeupcall at 5:27 am on Aug. 19, 2008
Clearly, if a group (such as blacks) define themselves in such a way (that they're black people), and tip similarly in a way that is negative to others, I will not hesitate calling them on it.
So you deny that blacks, as a collective whole, in the United States tip any differently than whites, again, as a collective whole?
First accusation of racism! Thank you.
-- Posted by rijames99 at 5:31 am on Aug. 19, 2008 This is a very interesting post and one which backs what a lot of waitstaff, including Blacks have anecdotally noted for years. Also, but to a less degree, women tend to tip much less than men. And female servers tend to be tipped less than male servers in the same restaurants. I want to make a couple points, one to some of the responders, one to the op. To the op, I do understand what you're saying, but I object to you putting yourself in the same category as waiters/waitresses. You are paid a full wage, albeit minimum wage, it's a full wage. In house wait staff are usually only paid $2.63/hour. That's right, that is minimum wage for waitstaff, so they are ENTITLED to a tip. You also open a whole pandora's box of who should be tipped. I certainly think the waitstaff who earn $2.63/hour should be tipped. But what about the person at Starbucks who makes >$8.00 /hour, and they have their tip jar out there. Or the person who hands me a slice of pizza and is paid full wage. We are now seeing tip jars everywhere, and I think its ubiquity distracts from those for whom tips are really intended.
-- Posted by Wakeupcall at 5:35 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Bud2400 at 5:30 am on Aug. 19, 2008
Clearly this fuck of a post demonstrates that, as a whole, blacks do tip less. But that does not define an individual black person. So again (and you still have not answered this) What is the point of this post?
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:38 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from rijames99 at 5:31 am on Aug. 19, 2008
I do have statistics on who's male and who's female, but I have not had the energy to organize and analyze it after doing all that for race and socioeconomic classes. I may just force myself to do it one of these days.
I, at least, am, though do bear in mind that delivery driver around the US that don't have such strict labor laws are being stuck to the old national minimum wages as they rise. Many are now making $5.15 - $5.85 an hour, which, while it's not as low as servers, is sub-minimum wage for many nonetheless.
Do realize that servers can also gather tips much faster than delivery drivers can. All servers I know make far more in tips than I ever will, although I don't really complain. I'm just simply stating that servers and pizza delivery drivers are both tipped professions and that people should tip both of them.
Again, not every pizza delivery driver is paid a full wage. In the states where servers are being paid a sub-minimum wage, pizza delivery drivers are likely to be paid at a sub-minimum wage as well. BTW, tip jars are ridiculous. Did you know that you're supposed to tip blackjack dealers, too? I never saw the reasoning for that, although when tipping is commonplace and expected, I generally follow suit.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 5:43 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Wakeupcall at 5:35 am on Aug. 19, 2008
It certainly reflects black people, though, and you cannot deny that. If you have a 50% chance of being stiffed by a black person and only about a 10 - 15% chance of being stiffed by any person of any other race, you're certainly going to notice that. I never claimed that it does define the individual black person, and I've made a few paragraphs in the OP explaining that, which you seem to have overlooked. For further reading, I refer you to paragraph #5 of the OP, under the subsection "Another thing to note," as well as the second to last sentence of the OP.
I have told you. To highlight the issue that black people collectively tip rather poorly compared to all other races, to back up my assertion with numbers and statistics that I gathered myself, and lastly, to get people to discuss the issue and speculate as to what the problem may be and what can be done about it.
Heh, that's what I asked (or rather, encouraged) everyone in the OP. I brought up some things people have suggested the problem may be and what the solutions could be taken, and I disproved a couple of them, but for the most part, I left that question in the air because I honestly have no answers and am not about to pretend as if I do. I only have evidence that the issue exists. The question as to what should be done is more complicated than you might think and why I'd appreciate other peoples' opinions.
-- Posted by rijames99 at 6:02 am on Aug. 19, 2008
"In house wait staff are usually only paid $2.63/hour. That's right, that is minimum wage for waitstaff, so they are ENTITLED to a tip. " I do realize that waitstaff can collect tips much faster than a delivery person. What I'm saying is although you are in a poorly paying job, it does pay minimum wage and in fact, contrary to your op, the price of delivery does cover your wages. This is not the case with wait staff. Although I always tip the delivery person, I don't consider it necessary, whereas I do consider tipping wairstaff necessary, as their service is not included in the price of the meal. I think there are times when a tip is common, but optional, such as a delivery person, and times when a tip should not be considered optional, such as a delivery person.
-- Posted by rijames99 at 6:09 am on Aug. 19, 2008
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 6:16 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from rijames99 at 6:02 am on Aug. 19, 2008
I know that and I'm certainly not denying that waitstaffs should get any tips. If anything, I'd back them up and claim that they do.
Do you refuse to acknowledge that parts where I've told you that many aren't? I can refer you to places talking about that issue quite a bit. http://tipthepizzaguy.com/discussion/thread.php?num=7541&ip=1 Or how Papa John's is going to the tip-credit system nationwide. http://tipthepizzaguy.com/discussion/thread.php?num=11252&ip=1
You mean a small reimbursement that covers gas, and that's separate from the delivery charge? And with all that aside, minimum wage for putting heavy wear and tear on a car (that could easily be avoided doing any other kind of minimum wage job), subjecting ourselves to traffic and all the potential dangers that can come with that, and putting ourselves out in the open to who knows what may be lurking out there? Believe me, if you'd tip a server at a restaurant, you should tip a pizza delivery driver. That's not to downplay on the kind of job waitstaffs must endure, mind you.
Neither is the delivery charge. I'd suggest reading up on what I've written about it. Many drivers will get $0.85 on reimbursement with a $2.20 delivery charge, although the delivery charge really isn't to cover reimbursement as reimbursement has existed long before delivery charges have; rather, it's to cover the rising price of food and ingredients. Though while I know you said you tip pizza delivery drivers, if you truly believe that all they only need to be reimbursed for their service, then it's essentially the equivalent of "tipping" a server a few cents for the "wear and tear" on their legs, arms, and mind.
Wait, what? The way I see it, if you tip a server, you ought to tip a delivery driver. You can agree to disagree there, but if you do, then at least consider and read some of the things I have said about it.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 6:22 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from rijames99 at 6:09 am on Aug. 19, 2008
-- Posted by Elm at 8:00 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Interesting data set. I'd be interested if we could get similar surveys from across the nation though how to coordinate that I don't know. Obviously there is something within self-defined "black" culture that causes this regardless of economic status.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 8:11 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Elm at 8:00 am on Aug. 19, 2008
That would certainly be the next step and I think I may just have an idea as I do have some contact with pizza delivery drivers all across the US, and a few in Australia. The only concern I'd have is the reliability, but I suppose it'd be far more accurate than my data set alone given the many variations different areas have. Hmm...
Couldn't agree more, although it can't be just one single thing. If it were that simple, the entire issue of why this happens wouldn't be so complex. Moreover, I'm not even too sure of how much of this can even be confronted or helped.
-- Posted by Elm at 8:17 am on Aug. 19, 2008
From reading the discussions that you linked it seems a combination of: 1 and 2 seem to be related to being ill-informed on the topic. 3 seems a rather more serious concern.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 8:25 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Elm at 8:17 am on Aug. 19, 2008
The study at Cornell University I linked to also mentioned that blacks are far likely to tip at a flat rate than as a percentage. However, you see that kinda stuff and compare it to my data, and you notice that about half of all blacks don't tip at all. Thus this is only a piece of the overall problem.
That could be a big part of it. Not sure if "resentment" is the right word for it, but more like not understanding why you'd pay a cost that isn't explicitly listed on the bill. Aussies and Brits feel the same way about that, too. They don't see the sense in tipping, and without members of their own race for blacks or nationality for Aussies and Brits making a point to tip and establish a moral obligation to tip, it just doesn't get done. Thus the bad tips among blacks.
Where'd you see that? If anything, I saw complete arrogance more than wishing harm on others in some of those topics. The thought of me being white and blacks just not tipping white people sprung up in my mind a couple times, but I dismissed it when I started seeing other blacks having similar problems with shitty tipping blacks.
-- Posted by Elm at 8:27 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Bud2400 at 8:25 am on Aug. 19, 2008
I don't believe the wish to cause harm or purposefully slight the server has anything to do with the race of the server. It is just a mean to put another person down in order to feel better about oneself. It is common among those who have been themselves put down on or view themselves as having that been done to them. Since there exists a victim mentality in parts of black culture (I'd argue the negative parts) than this can be seen as perhaps a cause.
-- Posted by Bud2400 at 8:33 am on Aug. 19, 2008 Quote: from Elm at 8:27 am on Aug. 19, 2008
Personally, I'm not sure how much it would have to do with that or just plain inconsideration. |
Slaus: $ 40.00 for 3 sammiches, soup, and sodas. They do know it's a damn recession right? 