-- Posted by Anonymous at 7:37 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 and how should it be done for the intellectuals -- Posted by greatescape at 7:38 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 I made a topic about this a while back... To me it seems like we as a society make a lot of the whole, "there is always a way to get better" line, and advocate that there is really never a way to justify an act of suicide. People tend to throw out the whole "Permanent solution to a temporary problem" line a lot, but I feel like this is done without even considering what they even mean by that. I think it is very possible that some people are in situations where the porblem is NOT temporary and there is no hope that it ever will be.  An alcoholic might get over a drinking problem but the urge to use again is always going to be there.  Someone who survives a rape might heal from the physical damage but the memory is never going to go away.   Is it realistic for us to actually tell anyone that their problem is temporary??   Because I have a hard time buying into the idea that human memory and emotion is so easily manipulated that we can expect people to get over certain things.  I just don't think it's possible.  Call me a pessimist, but that's not how the world works. source -- Posted by Anonymous at 7:42 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 oh I see but you don't say how ti shoudl be done[As a certified LiveWire Intellectual you are indubitably capable of composing a more verbose post!] -- Posted by Trash at 7:43 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 Suicide is never the right thing to do under any circumstances. I don't feel this subject is the greatest in the world, So I haven't written much. You know, Your spelling and grammar is very poor -- Posted by kay dee at 7:43 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 It's not. Period. I don't even feel like I should fully write about this, because the question just bothers me... -- Posted by Cumulonimbus at 7:45 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 When you're defeated in battle.  In this instance, hari-kiri is the preferred method.   -- Posted by Anonymous at 7:46 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 Quote: from Cumulonimbus at 7:45 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 When you're defeated in battle. In this instance, hari-kiri is the preferred method. do you mean sepuku speuku is that japanesethingy -- Posted by Alabamarama at 6:35 am on Aug. 30, 2008 Suicide is never the right thing to do, simply because it is never right to take a life. It may be the best course of action, say if the person has a terminal illness that puts them in agony every day, but that doesn't make it right. -- Posted by Event Horizon at 5:21 pm on Aug. 30, 2008 I would never advocate un-warranted suicide [I am for the idea of assisted suicide for the terminally ill], but I don't really see why it is such a BIG no-no. I don't understand why people say, "It is a terrible thing to do and it is SOOOO wrong". It is that person's life, and they can choose to live it, or not, as they see fit... We advocate all of these rights that we have to live, but if someone is tired of living, or doesn't see the point, or just hates life in general, why make them suffer through it? What  benefit does it do to society to make them live? I don't know, I just never really got why the idea of killing one's self is so strongly opposed when it is the freest choice one can make -- Posted by The Artful Dodger at 7:49 pm on Aug. 30, 2008 1) When your girlfriend breaks up with you, or your parents won't let you go to a late party. 2) anything painful, bloody and dramatic. no point in killing yourself if you can't freakout whoever finds your remains. -- Posted by MotoMojo at 10:24 pm on Sep. 1, 2008 This is a question of personal opinion. For me, the only time I can imagine myself committing suicide is if I am absolutely positive I'm about to die a particularly painful death, and there is some way to quickly end my life and avoid some of the unnecessary pain. So, I guess I would never premeditate suicide. -- Posted by Uruz 7 at 6:09 pm on Sep. 4, 2008 I'm not in favor of suicide, and I frown on those who do, but it is their own decision, and their own life they are taking, thus it is not my cup to decide whether or not they should live. If a person wishes to take their own life, it is their choice of running away from the reality they cannot deal with. Its just the alternate way of escaping your problems, and essentially ceasing to exist. So if thats what you want, I'll let you have it, because theres really no point for a loser to continue to exist. The only advice is that the person would not regret it in the afterlife, it it somehow does exist. How it should be done? I believe there is a thousand and one or more ways to die on this Earth. To be safe, jump from ten thousand feet and you'd be sure of death unless superman comes. Well, if theres such a  point where life is too much to bear, and its just that you're too weak - so when you're too weak - you jump. Enough said. I can't really feel for losers, because if they did live, they won't make it anywhere in life either . . Sorry - thats reality. Suck it up, or you are free to go. Thats if you can even go - I heard its kinda die hard to get a  successful suicide, so please don't dishonor yourself any more by conducting one that fails to kill. -- Posted by nikki at 9:48 am on Sep. 5, 2008 It always amuses me that SO many people are all "omg suicide is so bad it should never be allowed". Suicide is THAT PERSON'S CHOICE. Yes, it's selfish, but it's not upto you to dictate to ANYONE how they should live their life. You can be against suicide yourself - fine, don't kill yourself, but don't hate people who feel that that's the only option. I say this knowing someone who killed themselves, before people call me heartless. -- Posted by Chava at 11:56 am on Sep. 5, 2008 Quote: from greatescape11 at 10:38 pm on Aug. 24, 2008 I made a topic about this a while back... To me it seems like we as a society make a lot of the whole, "there is always a way to get better" line, and advocate that there is really never a way to justify an act of suicide.   People tend to throw out the whole "Permanent solution to a temporary problem" line a lot, but I feel like this is done without even considering what they even mean by that.   I think it is very possible that some people are in situations where the porblem is NOT temporary and there is no hope that it ever will be. An alcoholic might get over a drinking problem but the urge to use again is always going to be there. Someone who survives a rape might heal from the physical damage but the memory is never going to go away.   Is it realistic for us to actually tell anyone that their problem is temporary??   Because I have a hard time buying into the idea that human memory and emotion is so easily manipulated that we can expect people to get over certain things. I just don't think it's possible. Call me a pessimist, but that's not how the world works. source This is very well written. When something as horrible as say the holocaust or rape have been thrust upon your life who's anyone to make you live another 30-60 years with that pain and fear day in and day out. It would be torture. As to how one should go about suicide, I guess it's as personal as the individual case. -- Posted by tell me again at 6:11 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I think it's the right thing to do when the person decides it. It's tied to my belief that there isn't an objective right or wrong. I only think of things in terms of good and bad consequences. Sometimes the person makes this choice in haste and misses out on better things, and that sucks. But they made the choice, and no one can predict what could or could not have been.   Most people who refrain from suicide or are saved from suicidal attempts live to tell us that they are glad. But that doesn't mean much to me. They're not suffering anymore - cool, but who's to say whether the suffering was worth it? All you're relying on is the person's current, "happy" state of mind.   People might be making the "wrong choice", either because they were too depressed to think clearly, or because they were mentally-challenged/ignorant/too-young/... but I still think that ultimately it's not a morally-weighted thing. It's a shame if they "make a mistake", and I fully support promoting other options. But in the end, they decide whether it's worth it, for their own lot. And everybody else can suck it up and deal with their own lot (albeit the lot is affected by the suicidal).   Another gripe people have is that suicides often hurt other people. I think that's another shitty consequence, but I don't put a moral accountability onto the suicidal for that. They figured it was worth it, whether that be a spontaneous moment or a well-planned theory. Those who are left to deal with it, they deal with it, like they deal with life and everything in it. What could have been just sounds like a shallow concept to me.   I'm happy to explain any point if I was being convoluted or unclear. It's too many topics mushed together :P -- Posted by tell me again at 6:15 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Uruz 7 at 6:09 pm on Sep. 4, 2008 I'm not in favor of suicide, and I frown on those who do, but it is their own decision, and their own life they are taking, thus it is not my cup to decide whether or not they should live. If a person wishes to take their own life, it is their choice of running away from the reality they cannot deal with. Its just the alternate way of escaping your problems, and essentially ceasing to exist. So if thats what you want, I'll let you have it, because theres really no point for a loser to continue to exist. The only advice is that the person would not regret it in the afterlife, it it somehow does exist.   How it should be done? I believe there is a thousand and one or more ways to die on this Earth. To be safe, jump from ten thousand feet and you'd be sure of death unless superman comes. Well, if theres such a  point where life is too much to bear, and its just that you're too weak - so when you're too weak - you jump. Enough said. I can't really feel for losers, because if they did live, they won't make it anywhere in life either . . Sorry - thats reality. Suck it up, or you are free to go. Thats if you can even go - I heard its kinda die hard to get a  successful suicide, so please don't dishonor yourself any more by conducting one that fails to kill. What's with all this "I think you suck but I shall cushion my judgemental statement but saying that I will respect your choices"? I see this too much. And it just doesn't cut it. You look down on someone, and then you say "meh, but that's your view". Well duh.   ETA: As for "how"...? However they want? Preferably not by razor, bathtub, and hospital visit. But hey. Or were you hinting at assisted suicide by the "how" question..? Because why else would how they do it matter? -- Posted by Disposition at 6:51 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 12:48 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 It always amuses me that SO many people are all "omg suicide is so bad it should never be allowed".   Suicide is THAT PERSON'S CHOICE. Yes, it's selfish, but it's not upto you to dictate to ANYONE how they should live their life. You can be against suicide yourself - fine, don't kill yourself, but don't hate people who feel that that's the only option.   I say this knowing someone who killed themselves, before people call me heartless. I completely disagree with you. :\ Certainly, it's the person's choice, and of course, it's not anyone else's business... But I don't believe that it's "the right thing to do," even if that person decides to do so. People make choices all the time; just because he/she made that choice doesn't make it right. The terms "right and wrong" are so vague; it's matter of opinion on what one believes is truly "right". Is it right to end your life despite the fact that there are people who love and care about you? Is it right to kill yourself and lead a poor example for someone who looked up to you? Is it right to destroy your one and only life; to take away something so incredibly sacred to the finest detail... ? No. I believe suicide is always wrong. There is always hope for everyone. Things always have the ability to get better.   You may scoff at my opinion, but I've known someone who has committed suicide also. He wasn't some angsty teen; he wasn't just 'following the fad'. He was a respected figure in society... brilliant, really. In fact, he was the president of my school, and he jumped off a balcony. Yes, I strongly believe that is wrong also. -- Posted by tell me again at 7:04 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Disposition at 6:51 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 12:48 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 It always amuses me that SO many people are all "omg suicide is so bad it should never be allowed".   Suicide is THAT PERSON'S CHOICE. Yes, it's selfish, but it's not upto you to dictate to ANYONE how they should live their life. You can be against suicide yourself - fine, don't kill yourself, but don't hate people who feel that that's the only option.   I say this knowing someone who killed themselves, before people call me heartless. I completely disagree with you. :\ Certainly, it's the person's choice, and of course, it's not anyone else's business... But I don't believe that it's "the right thing to do," even if that person decides to do so. People make choices all the time; just because he/she made that choice doesn't make it right. The terms "right and wrong" are so vague; it's matter of opinion on what one believes is truly "right". Is it right to end your life despite the fact that there are people who love and care about you? Is it right to kill yourself and lead a poor example for someone who looked up to you? Is it right to destroy your one and only life; to take away something so incredibly sacred to the finest detail... ? No. I believe suicide is always wrong. There is always hope for everyone. Things always have the ability to get better.   You may scoff at my opinion, but I've known someone who has committed suicide also. He wasn't some angsty teen; he wasn't just 'following the fad'. He was a respected figure in society... brilliant, really. In fact, he was the president of my school, and he jumped off a balcony. Yes, I strongly believe that is wrong also. I read your rhetorical questions. And I answred "yes". You didn't even attempt to back it up. -- Posted by nikki at 1:32 am on Sep. 18, 2008 It is right to destroy your life if it's what you want. Nobody else has any right to tell you what to do with your body. Nobody. It scares me that people would be HAPPY for the government or other people to tell them that it's completely wrong to commit suicide. One of my closest friends killed herself. You cannot say what's going through anyone's head when they're suicidal, so how DARE you have the right to tell them that it's not the only solution? Some people have such bad lots on life that they feel suicide IS the only option - so what right on EARTH do you have to tell them otherwise? None whatsoever. You may believe suicide is wrong. But I don't believe you have the right to believe that it's wrong for everyone, because you have no idea what's going through anyone elses head but your own. -- Posted by allsmiles at 11:00 am on Sep. 18, 2008 Well... I don't think I have room to speak for anyone else regarding when suicide so I'll say when I consider suicide right for me. It would be a loss of self. My family on my mother's side has a history of alzheimers and other forms of dementia. Were I to be told that my mind had started to collapse, I would end it all. That being said, I am doing all that I can to ensure that, if nothing else, it can be halted (I'm planning on a career in research on technological workarounds, and on top of that I always have a machine running folding@home). I could not allow myself to be a shadow of my former self. I would also commit suicide were I to lose a significant body part. A hand, a leg, or even the ability to move them. Nothing less than perfection. This of course extends to similar attributes inflicted upon me. If I'm mugged and my spinal column's damaged, I'll kill myself. If I'm in a car crash and the result is brain damage, I will find a way to kill myself. Another, albeit small, possibility, is criminal punishments inflicting physical change to me. Corrupt officers, trigger happy... or even chemical castration. All would push me to suicide. As for how... well, methodology is not something I am at all concerned about. If it gets the job done, it's viable. I would probably opt for a headfirst plunge of about 40 feet. I'm confident of success, and asphyxiation is really not something I fancy. Personally, I'm of the stance of moral subjectivity concerning suicide for the individual. If they want to commit suicide, then suicide is the right thing for them to do. Sure, other people will be hurt by the act, but as I've stated elsewhere, the hurt is only equal to the hurt those people inflict by forcing that person to stay alive when they feel too much pain to see any worth in it. There's no greater pain that I can imagine than that of one's existence. -- Posted by Disposition at 4:42 pm on Sep. 18, 2008 Quote: from tell me again at 10:04 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Disposition at 6:51 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 12:48 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 It always amuses me that SO many people are all "omg suicide is so bad it should never be allowed".      Suicide is THAT PERSON'S CHOICE. Yes, it's selfish, but it's not upto you to dictate to ANYONE how they should live their life. You can be against suicide yourself - fine, don't kill yourself, but don't hate people who feel that that's the only option.      I say this knowing someone who killed themselves, before people call me heartless.    I completely disagree with you. :\    Certainly, it's the person's choice, and of course, it's not anyone else's business... But I don't believe that it's "the right thing to do," even if that person decides to do so. People make choices all the time; just because he/she made that choice doesn't make it right.    The terms "right and wrong" are so vague; it's matter of opinion on what one believes is truly "right". Is it right to end your life despite the fact that there are people who love and care about you? Is it right to kill yourself and lead a poor example for someone who looked up to you? Is it right to destroy your one and only life; to take away something so incredibly sacred to the finest detail... ?    No. I believe suicide is always wrong. There is always hope for everyone. Things always have the ability to get better.      You may scoff at my opinion, but I've known someone who has committed suicide also. He wasn't some angsty teen; he wasn't just 'following the fad'. He was a respected figure in society... brilliant, really. In fact, he was the president of my school, and he jumped off a balcony. Yes, I strongly believe that is wrong also.   I read your rhetorical questions. And I answred "yes". You didn't even attempt to back it up. I didn't back it up because my reasons were basically stated in my post. It's an opinion. I believe it's wrong because it's selfish and pointless. -- Posted by sadnessness at 5:27 am on Sep. 19, 2008 The definition of the cause of suicide that keeps getting thrown at me is: "when your coping resources outweight your pain" , so for each person this is at a different point and varies a lot because of previous life experiences as well as other things. It is never a thing that can be taken lightly, but i try as hard as i can not to judge those who have done so, or those who have tried and failed, because judging doesn't help anything and in the end suicide is more than just a cry for help. -- Posted by nikki at 6:07 am on Sep. 19, 2008 Quote: from Disposition at 12:42 am on Sep. 19, 2008 I didn't back it up because my reasons were basically stated in my post. It's an opinion. I believe it's wrong because it's selfish and pointless. I don't think you can say it's "selfish" and "pointless" when you've never been in the position where killing yourself is all you want. -- Posted by Acid World at 6:57 am on Sep. 19, 2008 I've been in a suicidal position as someone who was clinically depressed. I was medicated for a while, and I can't say if the medication helped or if my own search for personal relief helped more. Either way I was definatly suicidal for a time. I am extremely happy I never acted on it. I was not in my right mind when I wanted to commit suicide, I was just consumed in an irrationale sadness. Extreme emotions are the death of logic. It's everyone's right to do what they want with their bodies, one's body is one's property, but suicide is the most ill advised thing to do as it's all around a bad decision. This has nothing to do with "There is always a way to get better" as much as it has to do with suicide isn't a solution to a problem. The only time suicide is a solution is when you are dying in intense pain, and you'd rather die in no pain. Otherwise, the only thing suicide accomplishes is literally ceasing to exist. There is no relief in non-existance, there is just non-existance. It amounts to the last thing you feeling is explosive, uncontrollable sadness and then that being it. You never resolved the sadness. You never even attempted to resolve the sadness. You just decided to stop existing. In regular, first world citizens of America I'm surprised suicide is even an option. I've known people in the sub-urbs that have committed suicide, and thats just a load of shit. Whatever mental problems you have can be resolved, especially in this environment, and you can LIVE (which is everything to a living creature) comfortably looking back on the suicidal episode saying "Thank god I didn't kill myself". You might say I'm being ambiguous, but there are exceptions. I did say it's anyones right, though I don't agree with it. If some man in Africa had his wife and daughters raped and his children conscripted, his mother disembowled and his brother burned to death all in front of his eyes, I can see how such a mental trauma is insurmountable. A human mind can only take so much. -- Posted by Disposition at 2:03 pm on Sep. 19, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 9:07 am on Sep. 19, 2008 Quote: from Disposition at 12:42 am on Sep. 19, 2008   I didn't back it up because my reasons were basically stated in my post. It's an opinion. I believe it's wrong because it's selfish and pointless.   I don't think you can say it's "selfish" and "pointless" when you've never been in the position where killing yourself is all you want. Well, let me explain where I'm coming from. I used to be sick, and that really skewed my out look on life. I had therapy for several years for depression and anxiety problems. I understand people's motives for their suicidal thoughts. There were times that I wanted to just stop everything. I look back on those time and realize that I'm glad I pushed through difficulties in my life. Now, things are a lot better for me. In retrospect, even though I was in a lot of pain(mentally and physically), I don't think the most horrible parts of life can outweigh the more beautiful parts.   Granted, I see where you're coming from in some situations. Possibly, if no one cared about you, and that's all you wanted-- If you can't find the strength to get help, it's no one else's business to tell you otherwise. In a hypothetical situation, a chronic condition that puts you in constant misery all the time... I can see some light on your argument, then. I believe that is something a little bit different though, and more in the argument of euthanasia. For argument's sake, yeah, Depression is a chronic condition for some people. I don't think suicide is akin to euthanasia, though. (I know you didn't say anything about that; I'm just putting it out there.) I don't think that there's a proven cure for Depression, either. But I do believe that there are ways to make life more liveable than just giving in, unlike some physical illnesses. (Not to belittle the pain of mental illnesses. I don't believe the two types of pain are easily comparable.) But when there are people who love you, I believe it is selfish to give in. I don't think it makes sense to take away your only life to live. It makes life pointless to live in the first place. You say we shouldn't make judgments on someone's decision to commit suicide because we don't know how bad their situation is. I'm saying that the act, overall, isn't right. For example, it's not right to steal, even if you're poor and unable to work at all. These two crimes(suicide and theft) are similar because, in both situations, the victim should have gotten help but instead choice a "wrong" choice. In most regards, I agree with the philosopher, Thoreau, in saying, "Man is the artificer of his own happiness." -- Posted by nikki at 4:44 am on Sep. 20, 2008 Suicide is hardly comparable to theft. It's not right to steal, sure, I agree with that completely, but I don't see how you can compare that to someone commiting suicide. I still have to disagree with you that it's wrong to give in. I just hate the fact that people seem to be happy to allow a government or whatever to tell them whether they can or cannot commit suicide. It's their life. Their right. Not yours, not their families or friends - theirs. Only you should have control over your life - and if you feel that you simply CANNOT go on with life, then you should definitely have the right to end it. I mean, people will be upset, but your friends and family do not have the RIGHT to make decisions like that about your life, and it scares me that you'd be willing to allow other people to have that kind of control. -- Posted by Disposition at 5:52 am on Sep. 20, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 7:44 am on Sep. 20, 2008 Suicide is hardly comparable to theft. It's not right to steal, sure, I agree with that completely, but I don't see how you can compare that to someone commiting suicide. I still have to disagree with you that it's wrong to give in. I just hate the fact that people seem to be happy to allow a government or whatever to tell them whether they can or cannot commit suicide. It's their life. Their right. Not yours, not their families or friends - theirs. Only you should have control over your life - and if you feel that you simply CANNOT go on with life, then you should definitely have the right to end it.   I mean, people will be upset, but your friends and family do not have the RIGHT to make decisions like that about your life, and it scares me that you'd be willing to allow other people to have that kind of control. Hmm... I agree with you that it is a person's own right to make their own decisions. No one should make that decision for someone else. But I'm saying the action itself isn't right(as in just). I'm not for taking away anyone's right in doing what they believe is best. I'm just judging that action on what I believe. -- Posted by Bacon at 8:24 am on Sep. 20, 2008 God damn, since when did suicide become inherently "selfish"? Most of the time if they are selfish, they wouldn't commit suicide. Selfish people believe they better the world by existing and therefore they focus on their existence. A lot of the time it is thinking only of the benefit of others when one commits suicide. Sometimes it feels awful feeling so miserable in the presence of people that live their life happily and/or normally. Yes, most people that suicide feel as though death will "ease their pain", but that's really the only way in which suicide can be viewed as "selfish". I contemplate killing myself every day, but I often force myself not to. I don't necessarily believe it would be selfish of me if I did (as I believe I simply make any conversation with anyone awkward and I believe people simply dislike being around me in person) but I do believe it would be a waste of an education and early life. Especially since my parents put a lot of money and time into it. However, sometimes suicidal people only think of others. Sometimes they ONLY think of the people their death may affect. Because although it may hurt them in the short-term, they legitimately believe it would help them in the long-term. God. Suicide isn't inherently selfish - very rarely it is selfish at all.