-- Posted by Crazy snake at 12:12 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 Do you believe that an action you perform, could have consequences in someother part of the world? Such as: drop a pen in physics class, a tree falls in the amazon. I know that speaking strictly scientifically, its impossible. But we still can't be sure lol. I don't believe it, who would to be honest. Though its like the question: If a tree falls in a forest, and no one was around to hear it, how do we know it made noise? I want to see if anyone actualy believes this -- Posted by Crazy snake at 12:24 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 I received this message from a non intellectual member, but I found it interesting, so count it as an individual post on this topic please This is what she said: sunshineshower I think that certain actions in the right circumstances can have an effect that perhaps you don't realise. Drop a pen in physics class, as you bend down to pick it up, your teacher walks past and trips over your outstretched arm. The teacher breaks their ankle and can't be in school for a few weeks. You get a student teacher who inspires people in the class to go in a different direction to where they were already heading. Maybe he inspires someone to become a doctor, who then ends up finding a cure for cancer. Yes thats an exceedingly far fetched idea of things, but the point is every tiny action does have an effect. People who missed their planes on the morning of September 11th just got out of bed an hour late, or got stuck in really heavy traffic. That changed their lives forever and maybe the lives of others. Also... if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there it doesn't make a sound. Sound waves don't become noise until they reach an eardrum. Until then they are just waves. -- Posted by kk327 at 12:27 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 I believe that not all of my actions have impacts, especially the smaller ones, but there is a huge potential for them to.  Like sunshineflower said with that chain of events, things can happen.  Most times you drop a pen, nothing major happens, but there is always the potential for something like that to happen.   -- Posted by nigeltheoutlaw at 4:22 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 Quote: from Crazy snake at 12:24 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 I received this message from a non intellectual member, but I found it interesting, so count it as an individual post on this topic please This is what she said: sunshineshower I think that certain actions in the right circumstances can have an effect that perhaps you don't realise. Drop a pen in physics class, as you bend down to pick it up, your teacher walks past and trips over your outstretched arm. The teacher breaks their ankle and can't be in school for a few weeks. You get a student teacher who inspires people in the class to go in a different direction to where they were already heading. Maybe he inspires someone to become a doctor, who then ends up finding a cure for cancer.   Yes thats an exceedingly far fetched idea of things, but the point is every tiny action does have an effect. People who missed their planes on the morning of September 11th just got out of bed an hour late, or got stuck in really heavy traffic. That changed their lives forever and maybe the lives of others.   Also... if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there it doesn't make a sound. Sound waves don't become noise until they reach an eardrum. Until then they are just waves.   She explained that very well. Just as well as I would have. -- Posted by Event Horizon at 4:35 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 My take on this idea is that it is drawn to DRAMATIC extents by those who don't understand the idea fully. My view of the butterfly effect is that it is a logical necessity in a universe with physical laws. However, a rain-drop creating a fallen tree in the amazon is a bit extreme. It may be that a drop of water in your physics class would then cause ripples in the air which would disturb it just enough that a gnat fly's into a light, getting killed, then a bat has to fly a different way than it would have had the gnat not died to get a sufficient amount of food, etc etc, until the effects start getting larger and larger. These things do not happen suddenly, however, measurable effects would take days, years, even centuries to manifest. The thought experiment is this: You have two separate universes, identical in every way, set on pause [you are some temporal puppet-master]. In one universe you make a tree fall, in the other, you let it stand. You then watch for a decade and run the films. At first, pretty much everywhere would be identical [except the area of the fallen tree], then, slowly you might see some animals with differing patterns of movement, then maybe a person or two, etc. How drastic would it be? probably not much, seeing as how it was simply a tree that fell, however, if you were to kill a 15 year old's mother in front of her, that might DRASTICALLY change the course that that one universe would take with comparison to the other. With respect to the "tree in the forest" question. Yes, it makes a sound. Waves do not become sound when they hit an eardrum, the eardrum simply interprets the sound so that you CAN hear it. No one would hear it, so we wouldn't KNOW, but it would still make a sound, it would still disturb the air around it, it's sound waves would still travel through the air. The tree would make the same sound as if you were standing right next to it. To assume that your ears allow the tree to make a sound when it falls is silly. Its just like the question, "If there were no humans, would the earth exist?" YES, the universe existed trillions of years before ANY type of life existed, when primordial gasses were the pioneers of the universe. To ask if we dictate existence by our observation, is to question the fact that there was anything before the first observing creatures. The idea behind that idea is that the act of observation imparts a verrrrryyy small force on certain groups of particles [due to the photons that bounce off of the particles] thus making the quantum particles, at first lingering in the probabilistic limbo, choose a specific location, and are thus seen. The proponents of this idea then question whether or not those things would then exist if we were not here to observe them. The answer is most definitely yes, since the act of observation could easily be substituted for any other force. And, seeing as how there are more particles floating about in space that I even care to put a number to, an interaction between two limbo-floating-particles is a necessity, and, once one particle has been touched [therefore making two particles being touched] its only a matter of time before every single particle is bouncing off each other, constantly being struck by other particles, Thus, existing. Eh, that's my take on it for what it's worth. -- Posted by Blackadder at 5:39 pm on Sep. 7, 2008 The thought experiment is this: You have two separate universes, identical in every way, set on pause [you are some temporal puppet-master]. In one universe you make a tree fall, in the other, you let it stand. You then watch for a decade and run the films. At first, pretty much everywhere would be identical [except the area of the fallen tree], then, slowly you might see some animals with differing patterns of movement, then maybe a person or two, etc. How drastic would it be? probably not much, seeing as how it was simply a tree that fell, however, if you were to kill a 15 year old's mother in front of her, that might DRASTICALLY change the course that that one universe would take with comparison to the other. actually, I think you have understated the case: I think that -- given enough time -- even the slightest of difference(s) [like for example, one giant beech having one more grain of sand] will have a profound and noticible effect ((eventually)) -- Posted by Event Horizon at 5:45 pm on Sep. 7, 2008 Quote: from Blackadder at 5:39 pm on Sep. 7, 2008 The thought experiment is this:   You have two separate universes, identical in every way, set on pause [you are some temporal puppet-master]. In one universe you make a tree fall, in the other, you let it stand. You then watch for a decade and run the films.   At first, pretty much everywhere would be identical [except the area of the fallen tree], then, slowly you might see some animals with differing patterns of movement, then maybe a person or two, etc. How drastic would it be? probably not much, seeing as how it was simply a tree that fell, however, if you were to kill a 15 year old's mother in front of her, that might DRASTICALLY change the course that that one universe would take with comparison to the other.     actually, I think you have understated the case:   I think that -- given enough time -- even the slightest of difference(s) [like for example, one giant beech having one more grain of sand] will have a profound and noticible effect ((eventually)) How much time are we talking about here? One grain of sand? and you think it will have a profound difference in some time that is not a trillion years? I don't know, I just don't see it working that quickly. Obviously there are things that, because of their nature or their involvement in the goings-on of the world, would have a greater and quicker effect than other things. But I think that there are also a great many things that would not have, over even long periods of time, a noticeable effect. -- Posted by Blackadder at 6:21 pm on Sep. 7, 2008 How much time are we talking about here?   One grain of sand? and you think it will have a profound difference in some time that is not a trillion years? obvoiusally, the smaller the difference, the longer it would take*.... nonetheless, It would make a significant difference. how long is not easy to awnser, because different circumstances would dramatically change the time it would take to see a difference** *not forgetting, a small difference now, might actaully become significant in a different time zone (eg. In time 'A' people are immune to virus 'x'... in time 'b' people are vunerable to it) ** Imagine for example, tomorrow an alien race comes to earth; they own a machine that converts a single grain of sand into a human being....these aliens want a whole bunch of slaves for their empire, so they hunt down everysingle grain of sand ---> soon enough the difference between our two 'test' universes is a person ---> that person then does X, Y and Z ---> X, Y, Z cause events A, B and C ---> and so on.... -- Posted by Event Horizon at 6:35 pm on Sep. 7, 2008 Lets think about this in a more realistic sense... If you were to take two identical universes, and remove one grain of sand from the beach, my position is that the time it would take for there to be any noticeable difference would be far longer than the existence of life on earth. I don't see how such a small variation could do ANYTHING of significance. I am agreeing that everything will cause an altered state of events, my idea of the matter, however, is that for some things, the time might be far to long as to be considered near infinite, just as well as some changes might happen to something redundant and the course of history could go right back to the original track. -- Posted by medjai at 12:06 am on Sep. 8, 2008 SCENARIO. YOU, HOT GIRL IN PHYSICS CLASS. ME, PHYSICS PROFESSOR WHO WITHOUT YOUR ACTION WOULD HAVE FIGURED OUT THE CONFLICTS BETWEEN RELATIVITY AND QUANTUM. YOU, DROPS PEN IN CLASS. ME, WATCHES YOU PICK UP PEN IN CLASS. LATER THAT DAY I WOULD HAVE COME UP WITH A RANDOM THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAVE LED ME INTO DEVOTING MYSELF TO SOLVING SAID ISSUE OF QUANTUM AND RELATIVE, INSTEAD THINKS ABOUT YOU PICKING UP PEN AND SAID HOTNESS. IT WAS MY ONLY CHANCE TO SOLVE THE MYSTERY. BUTTERFLY EFFECT. YOU BITCH. :( -- Posted by Crazy snake at 9:54 am on Sep. 8, 2008 Quote: from medjai at 8:06 am on Sep. 8, 2008 SCENARIO. YOU, HOT GIRL IN PHYSICS CLASS. ME, PHYSICS PROFESSOR WHO WITHOUT YOUR ACTION WOULD HAVE FIGURED OUT THE CONFLICTS BETWEEN RELATIVITY AND QUANTUM. YOU, DROPS PEN IN CLASS. ME, WATCHES YOU PICK UP PEN IN CLASS. LATER THAT DAY I WOULD HAVE COME UP WITH A RANDOM THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAVE LED ME INTO DEVOTING MYSELF TO SOLVING SAID ISSUE OF QUANTUM AND RELATIVE, INSTEAD THINKS ABOUT YOU PICKING UP PEN AND SAID HOTNESS. IT WAS MY ONLY CHANCE TO SOLVE THE MYSTERY. BUTTERFLY EFFECT. YOU BITCH. :( -- Posted by Blackadder at 11:28 am on Sep. 8, 2008 Quote: from Event Horizon at 2:35 am on Sep. 8, 2008 Lets think about this in a more realistic sense... If you were to take two identical universes, and remove one grain of sand from the beach, my position is that the time it would take for there to be any noticeable difference would be far longer than the existence of life on earth. I don't see how such a small variation could do ANYTHING of significance. Well, my point with the 'sand=baby machine' was to point out that, (given time and circumstance) any insignificant difference may well at some point become significant. -- granted, in some instance, this difference may only occur after all life is well dead. also, what do we consider significant? --- the Uk having one more citizen than in the other universe would be significant on one scale, yet utterly insignificant on another... for something to be 'significant' what level of difference are we talking about? -- Posted by Event Horizon at 12:58 pm on Sep. 8, 2008 Quote: from Blackadder at 2:28 pm on Sep. 8, 2008 Quote: from Event Horizon at 2:35 am on Sep. 8, 2008 Lets think about this in a more realistic sense... If you were to take two identical universes, and remove one grain of sand from the beach, my position is that the time it would take for there to be any noticeable difference would be far longer than the existence of life on earth. I don't see how such a small variation could do ANYTHING of significance.   Well, my point with the 'sand=baby machine' was to point out that, (given time and circumstance) any insignificant difference may well at some point become significant. -- granted, in some instance, this difference may only occur after all life is well dead.   also, what do we consider significant? --- the Uk having one more citizen than in the other universe would be significant on one scale, yet utterly insignificant on another... for something to be 'significant' what level of difference are we talking about? Well, I think that the differences would be marked. For one universe to have one extra person than another would mean that all SORTS of things are different. Think about the implications of one extra person, the housing differences, the job differences, maybe the homeless differences, then extrapolate that and think about the differences caused by his shopping, the monetary differences because of his salary, etc. Contrast that, then, to the difference in this scenario: You walk on the beach in two universes, in one, you leave the beach with exactly 2,947 grains of sand on your right foot, you wipe off your feet after taking a seat and continue on your way. My question is, if in another universe, you were to have had 2,948 grains of sand, would there be a significant difference? Would the extra millionth of a second, or extra millionth of a pound of force needed to wipe off that extra grain later translate into a great variance? I'm not sure, I'd like to think not, but I can't all together discard the notion. I mean that extra effort might cause you to depress the gas peddle a millionth of a pound less, thus using some ridiculously small amount of less fuel, which would lead to a slightly less amount of time at the pump, etc. would that all translate to something noticeable? I don't know, but I don't think so... -- Posted by medjai at 1:28 am on Sep. 9, 2008 I'm pretty sure like in my example hot girls have thwarted humanity many times over and that that is the only important lesson from this thread. -- Posted by nikki at 9:38 am on Sep. 10, 2008 All I have to say is that little things have big impacts, whether you realise it at the time or not. Even little things like deciding to go out one night or not, or eating one thing or another. The Butterfly Effect is a powerful one. -- Posted by willz at 10:49 pm on Sep. 15, 2008 Doesn't this come into Chaos Theory? Even the smallest change can, over time, result in a completely different result. -- Posted by Catalyst11 at 4:44 pm on Sep. 16, 2008 Quote: from Crazy snake at 12:24 pm on Sep. 5, 2008 I received this message from a non intellectual member, but I found it interesting, so count it as an individual post on this topic please This is what she said: sunshineshower I think that certain actions in the right circumstances can have an effect that perhaps you don't realise. Drop a pen in physics class, as you bend down to pick it up, your teacher walks past and trips over your outstretched arm. The teacher breaks their ankle and can't be in school for a few weeks. You get a student teacher who inspires people in the class to go in a different direction to where they were already heading. Maybe he inspires someone to become a doctor, who then ends up finding a cure for cancer.   Yes thats an exceedingly far fetched idea of things, but the point is every tiny action does have an effect. People who missed their planes on the morning of September 11th just got out of bed an hour late, or got stuck in really heavy traffic. That changed their lives forever and maybe the lives of others.   Also... if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there it doesn't make a sound. Sound waves don't become noise until they reach an eardrum. Until then they are just waves.   Practically what I would've said..so Im not going to post it. -- Posted by xselena at 5:39 am on Sep. 17, 2008 I completley agree with sunshineshower, although neutral on her sound wave part because I don't know anything about that stuff.  I heard of the question though? -- Posted by breannafhchick06 at 12:52 pm on Sep. 20, 2008 I just had to write a paper on this theory and I do believe that it is true to an extent. A leaf could fall off a tree and cause a massive car accicdent killing 10 or if a squirrel ate the seed that the tree grew from 3 years earlier these people would have been saved. -- Posted by medjai at 4:49 pm on Sep. 21, 2008 What if at the smallest level the universe is completely deterministic but because of how we observe it we assume alternative outcomes could have happened.in other words what if chaos theory dug into deep enough (small things snowball) it supports universal determinism.