-- Posted by tell me again at 6:44 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 The majority of religious people I meet seem frustratingly sheltered, illogical and self-righteous. Don't jump down my throat yet, you've heard of this criticism before. The thing I want to ask is... do those of you who are religious ever feel like the idiots are messing it up for you? Please only answer yes if you think the majority of religious people are sheltered and misrepresenting your religion.   This does not mean "oh yeah I know someone who's really annoying about religion" Most of the time, I think religion is a perfectly tolerable idea. And I've met one or two (older) religious people whom I think I can share quite a lot with. I have faith in their wisdom about life in general, regardless of whether a God exists or not. They are accepting and warm, and I don't mind pondering about the world in their presence. From a religious standpoint, they'd be the ideal ones to share the message, right? But then there are so many people spouting naive, senseless statements. Or giving personal stories that are off on a tangent and barely relevant. Or just being presumptious bastards in general. They're the cliche of a stupid religious idiot. But for the religious people, how do you feel about them? What do you make of them? -- Posted by whoami111 at 6:46 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 im non religious but i have been to a church before. they don't act like what you mention but i do agree they are not so intelligent -- Posted by tell me again at 6:47 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from whoami111 at 6:46 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 im non religious but i have been to a church before. they don't act like what you mention but i do agree they are not so intelligent Did you mean "they" as in the church? Or those who go to church? -- Posted by Latin Muscle at 6:47 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Some make others look bad...in simple words. -- Posted by Guardian at 6:48 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 When I was a Christian, I felt like my entire church was pretty close-minded and didn't really accept outsiders at all. But it was nice to it's own members, if that counts for anything. I felt pretty ashamed when I heard my parents talk about gay marriage, abortion etc. That's probably the main reason I'm an atheist. -- Posted by carracer at 6:48 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Im religious and Im not sheltered at all. But I know what you mean. They are many religious people that are intolerant and refuse to even listen to ideas. The thing about religion is that you can intertwine it with science if you try to, thats what keeps me from having to "choose a side". On the other hand you can be religious, out in the world, and still stick by your guns and not agree with what atheists say. Sometimes it has nothing to do with being sheltered, but having to do with what people want to believe and have faith in. -- Posted by Event Horizon at 6:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from whoami111 at 9:46 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 im non religious but i have been to a church before. they don't act like what you mention but i do agree they are not so intelligent ^ missing the point entirely I can not comment because I am a Pantheist, and I've never met a Pantheist that fits that description. However, I am anxious to hear what some of the more intelligent theists on here have to say about it [perhaps Forever Angel or Soren] -- Posted by whoami111 at 6:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from tell me again at 6:47 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from whoami111 at 6:46 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 im non religious but i have been to a church before. they don't act like what you mention but i do agree they are not so intelligent Did you mean "they" as in the church? Or those who go to church?   in the church but i did have met some out of the church, they are still nice, just not the brightest people i know -- Posted by Bobman21 at 6:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I agree.  I am, however, completely non-religious.  The majority of religious people I know, however, are rather unsophisticated in their capacity to reason and argue anything from a philosophical standpoint.  Even if they are very intelligent in other academic areas.  I take this as evidence for why so many people are religious... those people who are inept in the philosophical realm are much more likely to be religious.  And far more people are unsophisticated than sophisticated.  How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious?  That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now. -- Posted by tell me again at 6:50 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from latin muscle at 6:47 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Some make others look bad...in simple words. I just thought it applies more to religion than any other category. -- Posted by carracer at 6:51 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Bobman21 at 6:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I agree. I am, however, completely non-religious. The majority of religious people I know, however, are rather unsophisticated in their capacity to reason and argue anything from a philosophical standpoint. Even if they are very intelligent in other academic areas. I take this as evidence for why so many people are religious... those people who are inept in the philosophical realm are much more likely to be religious. And far more people are unsophisticated than sophisticated. How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious? That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now. Im religious and love philosophy... -- Posted by Hontoshimu at 6:52 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 one of my friends is a christian and i used to be we always have theological arguements theyre great fun -- Posted by Event Horizon at 6:52 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Bobman21 at 9:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I agree. I am, however, completely non-religious. The majority of religious people I know, however, are rather unsophisticated in their capacity to reason and argue anything from a philosophical standpoint. Even if they are very intelligent in other academic areas. I take this as evidence for why so many people are religious... those people who are inept in the philosophical realm are much more likely to be religious. And far more people are unsophisticated than sophisticated. How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious? That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now. Be careful with that statement. I can see what you are saying, the masses choose religion because it is easier to explain things than with physics and deep philosophical thought, however, that is not to say that those who are religious are necessarily philosophically inept. I'm sure you meant it this way, just making sure, because I've read the works of many theistic philosophers, and have personally conversed with some, and I can tell you they are far from philosophically inept. Again, just making sure everyone else catches the distinction there. -- Posted by tell me again at 6:54 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from carracer at 6:48 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Im religious and Im not sheltered at all.   But I know what you mean.   They are many religious people that are intolerant and refuse to even listen to ideas.   The thing about religion is that you can intertwine it with science if you try to, thats what keeps me from having to "choose a side".   On the other hand you can be religious, out in the world, and still stick by your guns and not agree with what atheists say.   Sometimes it has nothing to do with being sheltered, but having to do with what people want to believe and have faith in. Yeah, intertwining it with science is one up from blatant, single-minded creationism.   But I didn't just mean that. It's the feeling that if God is something higher and more meaningful, then those people surely can't be the ones to get it. Because they're so. fucking. shallow.   But just because they don't get it (presuming I'm right about that) doesn't mean that no one does. And that's what I'm asking. -- Posted by 2kewl4u2know at 6:58 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Yes, I do, but....not in the way you're thinking...I guess? I definitely believe there are those who misrepresent my religion, not just Lutheranism, but Christianity as a whole.  I never noticed it as much when I was younger, but as I grew older, I began recognizing the hypocracies of the members (not the church, just to make sure that's clear).  At first it was in members of other religious organizations both outside of Christianity and in the many sects under it.  Then, in fact somewhat more recently, I noticed it in the members of my own church....It was rather disheartening. As for sheltered..well, yes, actually I do think a lot of them are sheltered, which is very much possible the reasoning for their prejudiced thoughts.  Now know, when I say "sheltered" I don't just mean as in raised not really knowing the world like kids are to protect them from the harshness of society.  I mean, even the adults are very sheltered, living lives that rarely warrent for a proper opinion about hardships in American most specifically.  These lives I think partially lead them to make opinions and perform actions that are very unappealing to the general populace which in return give the whole Christian community a bad name. -- Posted by MixedDelight at 6:59 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 It hurts a lot when i see videos on youtube or other streaming sites of radicals giving Christianity or other religions a bad name. Because of a few people, everyone assumes most Christians are bible-thumping and ignorant to the changing world around them. All Muslims are terrorists. All Catholic males are child molesters. The generalization goes on for almost every religion. A lot of people are not religious because they know they would have to change their life styles to be religious. Yet on their death beds, or lying on the side of the road with a bullet in their chests; they find 'God' in a hurry. -,- -- Posted by tell me again at 7:02 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from 2kewl4u2know at 6:58 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Yes, I do, but....not in the way you're thinking...I guess? I definitely believe there are those who misrepresent my religion, not just Lutheranism, but Christianity as a whole.  I never noticed it as much when I was younger, but as I grew older, I began recognizing the hypocracies of the members (not the church, just to make sure that's clear).  At first it was in members of other religious organizations both outside of Christianity and in the many sects under it.  Then, in fact somewhat more recently, I noticed it in the members of my own church....It was rather disheartening. As for sheltered..well, yes, actually I do think a lot of them are sheltered, which is very much possible the reasoning for their prejudiced thoughts.  Now know, when I say "sheltered" I don't just mean as in raised not really knowing the world like kids are to protect them from the harshness of society.  I mean, even the adults are very sheltered, living lives that rarely warrent for a proper opinion about hardships in American most specifically.  These lives I think partially lead them to make opinions and perform actions that are very unappealing to the general populace which in return give the whole Christian community a bad name. I think you might be closer to what I mean than the other posts here. Sheltered not as in "stupid" necessarily.. but just lacking depth about hardship and about the human condition. Often lacking empathy, despite being very nice people. -- Posted by 2kewl4u2know at 7:05 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from tell me again at 9:02 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I think you might be closer to what I mean than the other posts here. Sheltered not as in "stupid" necessarily.. but just lacking depth about hardship and about the human condition. Often lacking empathy, despite being very nice people. That's it, but simpler.  Again though, it's not fair to group all of those like that, but yes, the ones who generally, IN MY EXPERIENCE, misrepresent my religion are the ones you explained above. -- Posted by Bobman21 at 9:47 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Event Horizon at 9:52 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Bobman21 at 9:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I agree.  I am, however, completely non-religious.  The majority of religious people I know, however, are rather unsophisticated in their capacity to reason and argue anything from a philosophical standpoint.  Even if they are very intelligent in other academic areas.  I take this as evidence for why so many people are religious... those people who are inept in the philosophical realm are much more likely to be religious.  And far more people are unsophisticated than sophisticated.  How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious?  That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now. Be careful with that statement. I can see what you are saying, the masses choose religion because it is easier to explain things than with physics and deep philosophical thought, however, that is not to say that those who are religious are necessarily philosophically inept.   I'm sure you meant it this way, just making sure, because I've read the works of many theistic philosophers, and have personally conversed with some, and I can tell you they are far from philosophically inept. Again, just making sure everyone else catches the distinction there. If you read my comment carefully, you will notice that I make no blanket statement regarding the philosophical ineptitude of religious people.  Note that I said "the majority..." indicating that not all of them are like this.  Note also that I acknowledge that there are people who are religious and skilled at philosophy with the statement How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious?  That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now. . -- Posted by Event Horizon at 10:20 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Bobman21 at 12:47 am on Sep. 18, 2008 Quote: from Event Horizon at 9:52 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 Quote: from Bobman21 at 9:49 pm on Sep. 17, 2008 I agree. I am, however, completely non-religious. The majority of religious people I know, however, are rather unsophisticated in their capacity to reason and argue anything from a philosophical standpoint. Even if they are very intelligent in other academic areas. I take this as evidence for why so many people are religious... those people who are inept in the philosophical realm are much more likely to be religious. And far more people are unsophisticated than sophisticated. How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious? That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now.    Be careful with that statement.    I can see what you are saying, the masses choose religion because it is easier to explain things than with physics and deep philosophical thought, however, that is not to say that those who are religious are necessarily philosophically inept.  I'm sure you meant it this way, just making sure, because I've read the works of many theistic philosophers, and have personally conversed with some, and I can tell you they are far from philosophically inept.    Again, just making sure everyone else catches the distinction there. If you read my comment carefully, you will notice that I make no blanket statement regarding the philosophical ineptitude of religious people. Note that I said "the majority..." indicating that not all of them are like this. Note also that I acknowledge that there are people who are religious and skilled at philosophy with the statement How do I explain those people who are not inept yet are still religious? That's a tough one I'm not in the mood to tackle right now. . Note, also, that I said that I noticed that you were not making a blanket statement, and was only dissolving any misunderstandings anyone might pick out from your post. -- Posted by King Kong at 6:32 am on Sep. 18, 2008 I'm religious and yes -- Posted by Forever Angel at 8:38 am on Sep. 18, 2008 First, I will make the assumption that you are speaking of 'Christians' because otherwise my comments are not all going to be applicable. I'm not sure what you mean by "frustratingly sheltered" but as far as illogical and self-righteous, no, I don't believe the 'majority' fit that description. It does seem that the loudest, 'in your face' Christians are the ones who lack the ability to convey their message in a calm, coherent fashion. Most of the people I know simply live their own lives in the way of their faith, discussing that faith when asked, but not using it as a club to beat someone over the head with. On the other hand, I often get the impression that a lot of atheists are so sensitive about hearing any religious references, they over react. They start assuming things, like the OP, that don't necessarily fit the facts. I would be willing to bet that the "majority" of religious people you meet, you don't even realize ARE religious. I think you are really talking about the majority of vocal religious people you meet. And I will agree that these people are often annoying, poorly informed and very self-righteous. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 9:55 am on Sep. 18, 2008 It depends which specific demographic you're looking at and talking about. I've found that different age groups of different people from different regions are very different in the way they live when raised with a religion. Here in the Northeast, I've met very few people who were raised Christian but weren't also open-minded and not sheltered. From what I've heard, things in the South are pretty different, as in the Midwest. It varies. A lot of the time, as well, the things that people on these forums complain about regarding Christians are simply maturity issues. Teenagers are, as a general statement, immature. They're becoming mature, but it's a process, and so it's logically expected that teenagers are going to behave more like buffoons than people of other age groups. -- Posted by Enigma38B at 9:11 pm on Sep. 21, 2008 I couldn't agree with you more. Self-righteous people have a way of getting on everyone's nerves.