-- Posted by Tiroth at 6:04 pm on Sep. 24, 2008 Yes, this was one of the questions on the intellectual test.  I just wonder what everyone thought about that, considering nobody but the moderator ever sees your essay.   I personally believe there is no such thing as one, because there is always a subconscious urge to put yourself in a better position somewhere or make yourself [And the human race] better or stronger among others.  Even if you don't consciously think it, it is still why you are doing it.  That is how humans came to rule the world.  That is how governments were made, people seeking power under the mask of peace and organized society. -- Posted by Hi Carie at 6:04 pm on Sep. 24, 2008 I love the friends episode about this concept, where phoebe and Joey debate over whether or not it is possible. -- Posted by schoon at 6:51 pm on Sep. 24, 2008 explain the guy who jumps on the grenade in the trenches to save his buddies explain the boyfriend who jumps in front of a mugger and takes a bullet for his girlfriend explain the men and women of United Flight 93 that took control of the airplane and ran it into the ground, killing themselves, to save others on 9/11 Screw 'why we came to rule the world'. Why are so many intellectuals so fucking cynical? -- Posted by Tiroth at 7:01 pm on Sep. 24, 2008 Quote: from schoon at 6:51 pm on Sep. 24, 2008 explain the guy who jumps on the grenade in the trenches to save his buddies Helping his country succeed.  He would die anyway, but in doing this he helps other live for his country or "world" to live on. explain the boyfriend who jumps in front of a mugger and takes a bullet for his girlfriend I've never heard of this happening, but if it does it is either due to a primal instinct to protect the females of the tribe or group, or due to the complex emotion of love.  If due to love, then that is the one bump in this otherwise perfect theory. explain the men and women of United Flight 93 that took control of the airplane and ran it into the ground, killing themselves, to save others on 9/11 See #1 Screw 'why we came to rule the world'. Why are so many intellectuals so fucking cynical? I'm cynical because of how my mind works.  99.9% of things can easily be explained by something like what I said in my original post.  The world is a cynical place.  I'm just living outside of sugar-coated fantasies.  (Yes, I know that sounds cheesy.) -- Posted by nikki at 1:31 am on Sep. 25, 2008 I believe there are unselfish actions. To the OP - I believe you're too cynical. People throw themselves infront of bullets or onto grenades because they know they're saving more people. How is that selfish when they're going to die at the end of the day? The world isn't as hard and cynical as you seem to be making it out to be. -- Posted by TRIPonME at 1:58 am on Sep. 25, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 1:31 am on Sep. 25, 2008 I believe there are unselfish actions. To the OP - I believe you're too cynical. People throw themselves infront of bullets or onto grenades because they know they're saving more people. How is that selfish when they're going to die at the end of the day? The world isn't as hard and cynical as you seem to be making it out to be. But then is the act of "saving more people by sacrificing yourself" really unselfish?  If that man (or woman) views himself as a martyr, as a man to be recognized to have died to protect his values; or even for the simple thought that doing good will get him to heaven--are his motives still unselfish? -- Posted by medjai at 2:29 am on Sep. 25, 2008 Selfless actions are possible. Why? Because what defines something as selfish or selfless is the conscious will behind the action. If you intentionally extend the definition to an unconscious level it is worthless, obviously if you take it down under the microscope and look at it all the way at the instinctual level, there are mechanisms there. But I can only fairly definine selfless and selfish actions in a conscious, thinking, rationalizing sense. If you personally are taking action because you know your brother doesn't want to die and not because if he dies you'll be sad for losing him, you are being selfless, regardless of the buzz of instinct leading up to it. My main point is this. Just because you can come up with a selfish reason for an action, does not mean that the reason you invented (no matter how logical!) is the one that was being processed when the action happened, so it could be selfless as well. -- Posted by nikki at 3:48 am on Sep. 25, 2008 Quote: from kenflyken at 9:58 am on Sep. 25, 2008 Quote: from Nikki at 1:31 am on Sep. 25, 2008 I believe there are unselfish actions. To the OP - I believe you're too cynical. People throw themselves infront of bullets or onto grenades because they know they're saving more people. How is that selfish when they're going to die at the end of the day?    The world isn't as hard and cynical as you seem to be making it out to be. But then is the act of "saving more people by sacrificing yourself" really unselfish? If that man (or woman) views himself as a martyr, as a man to be recognized to have died to protect his values; or even for the simple thought that doing good will get him to heaven--are his motives still unselfish? You don't know what anyones motives are when they jump in front of a bullet or onto a grenade. You don't know that they think of themselves as being a martyr, that's a mere assumption on your part. -- Posted by Vordhosbn at 5:18 am on Sep. 25, 2008 i had this very discussion with my philosophy professor not long ago, and we came to a conclusion very similar to medjai's. it's very easy to define 'selfless' in such a way that a selfless act is impossible, but then what is the point of this discussion? if you look at selflessness as altruism, then there is a definite difference between this and an act out of, say, duty or obligation. altruism is the ability to conduct an act without the INTENTION of gaining reward or recognition. if reward or recognition happen to come about as a result of the act, it does not necessarily make it a selfish act. as said so well by medjai, it is all about the intention of the person committing the act. to say, as some do, that even the most charitable acts are driven by desire, and are therefore selfish, requires circular logic. it assumes that satisfaction is the same as self-satisfaction. using this assumption, the statement is unfalsifiable, making it useless for discussion. so, i would say that a selfless act is one where a person opts to value satisfaction out of charity, above SELF satisfaction or pleasure. for example, by getting out of bed at 5am to drive my neighbour to the airport, i feel good about myself for doing something nice. i get satisfaction out of it. however, i have sacrificed my own SELF satisfaction (ie, a warm bed and a sleep in) to gain this good feeling. there is no right or wrong answer, but this is how i would define a selfless act. -- Posted by medjai at 1:38 pm on Sep. 25, 2008 The good feelings after a selfless act also can't negate that it was selfless, all that matters is your concious motive, that you are knowingly putting another in front of you in priority. -- Posted by Vordhosbn at 1:46 pm on Sep. 25, 2008 Quote: from medjai at 1:38 pm on Sep. 25, 2008 The good feelings after a selfless act also can't negate that it was selfless, all that matters is your concious motive, that you are knowingly putting another in front of you in priority. exactly how i feel. it's all in the intention.   -- Posted by Crazy snake at 5:18 pm on Sep. 27, 2008 The perfect exapmple of an unselfish action, is in the merchant of venice. Antonio was giving up his life, to ensure the happiness of his friend Bassanio. How is that selfish? I believe there are unselfish actions. To the OP - I believe you're too cynical. People throw themselves infront of bullets or onto grenades because they know they're saving more people. How is that selfish when they're going to die at the end of the day? The world isn't as hard and cynical as you seem to be making it out to be. ^^^ Nikki is right here