-- Posted by Stand Up at 6:08 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 What would happen if someone got a brain transplant, from their body (which doesn't work anymore) to a new body, a donors body. - Would that person have the same Identity? Be the same person? OR would they be the other person (the person in the donors body)? Where is their soul? Personality Traits and so on?   What would you think if these was a realistic possibility? Is it good? Is it wrong? When does science cross the line? -- Posted by HaitianGURL67 at 6:09 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 That's just wrong... -- Posted by Black American Dude at 6:10 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 i would think that person would change physical identity but keep their personal identity. therefore in answer of your question, they would have the same identity but a different shell. their soul rests on their mental states. the soul acting like a battery that animates the inanimate is the identity. what's good is a remote control if there's no battery inside of it? useless. utterly useless and irrelevant to relevant matters. -- Posted by Bearsy at 6:10 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 They would have the same identity. Looks fade, who you are is in your head. -- Posted by HeartofJuyoMk2 at 6:11 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 would never work, the body would reject it -- Posted by Lahanalove at 6:12 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 That's actually a good question... Personailty traits are actually formed within the brain, and you can go on and on about whether personality is formed by enviornment or hereditary.. but yeah... that's a deep question. I'll get back to you when i have sat and thought about it ^.^ -- Posted by MixedDelight at 6:13 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Quote: from HeartofJuyoMk2 at 6:11 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 would never work, the body would reject it QFT. This guy hit it head on. -- Posted by Stand Up at 6:13 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Quote: from HeartofJuyoMk2 at 9:11 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 would never work, the body would reject it Hypothetically speaking.. Although science has been "progressing" so fast that I wouldn't be shocked if in like 10/20 years ... it was a reality. -- Posted by The Oath at 6:13 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Self-identity lies in the brain, not the body. So, if that were even possible, the person (their brain) would be the same, and therefore the same person in a different body. I don't really understand the moral issue some may take with this. -- Posted by HeartofJuyoMk2 at 6:16 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 6:13 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Quote: from HeartofJuyoMk2 at 9:11 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 would never work, the body would reject it Hypothetically speaking.. Although science has been "progressing" so fast that I wouldn't be shocked if in like 10/20 years ... it was a reality. hypothetically speaking, the brain would undergo corruption (if it weren't rejected) then the personality would suffer trauma (being a new person), but the personality would be mostly the original. -- Posted by Bearsy at 6:21 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Um how would you attach all the nerves in the new body to the brain? And the spinal cord and everything... too many, too small. Couldn't be done. -- Posted by Broken Doll at 6:23 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Quote: from Black American Dude at 6:10 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 i would think that person would change physical identity but keep their personal identity. therefore in answer of your question, they would have the same identity but a different shell. their soul rests on their mental states. the soul acting like a battery that animates the inanimate is the identity. what's good is a remote control if there's no battery inside of it? useless. utterly useless and irrelevant to relevant matters. this -- Posted by h a t t at 6:34 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 same person, different body. the brain is what makes someone who they are. -- Posted by Stand Up at 6:52 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Quote: from The Oath at 9:13 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 Self-identity lies in the brain, not the body. So, if that were even possible, the person (their brain) would be the same, and therefore the same person in a different body. I don't really understand the moral issue some may take with this. How can you not understand the moral issues? Imagine that you have a horrible accident and your body is unable to recuperate from it, they take your brain out and put it in the body of someone with the opposite physical characteristics you have. Every single time you look at your self in the mirror you see this stranger... Although you've been used to see the same face in the mirror for as long as you've been alive.  Imagine the confusion, trauma, etc; that all of that can create. If it's a new body then a lot of your normal physiological reactions, likes, etc; would be completely different.. and with that even your brain could start to change. Not to mention the impact it could have on the people who surround you because they are used to seeing this person, you, and now they have another person, a stranger.. with your brain talking to them... How can they know is you? Imagine the connotations that something like these could create in a bigger impact like Terrorist doing this so that they are not recognized and so on. Imagine.. the family, friends, etc of the donors body who might see that person come to life again.. -- Posted by The Oath at 7:59 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 It would take a long time for my neurons to connect and make proper networks, et cetera, et cetera. Eventually I would properly recognise the face in the mirror, and all that other crap. The initial wtf shock would slowly but surely dissipate due to the brain's plasticity, the ability to get over all that crazy shit that I don't feel like taking the time to explain. My friend and family's uneasiness over it is to be expected, as well as that of the donors. They will either get over it or they won't, that's their prerogative. Their inability to recuperate or properly understand the procedure in no way makes the entire thing immoral or whatever else you're trying to paint it as. It is merely a matter of ignorance, really. -- Posted by Stand Up at 8:07 pm on Oct. 4, 2008 And how about the family members and friends of the donors body? .. Imagine someone you loves dies and then you see them walking on the street and turns out they are alive.. yet no it's not their brain, kay it's not them. Good luck dealing with that for the rest of your life. Talking about new ways of creating traumas... Most of the people would end up in a mental hospital if we talk about his realistically.. if not we several emotional traumas. You make it seem as something simple but it's not, aside from the impediments of something like this happening, the emotional, social, moral, etc, repercussions aren't something that should be taken so lightly. Science should define a line and stick to it.   Imagine if they did this to half of the population, we are already overpopulated.. and so on. It's not such an easy matter. It needs to be approached from different areas.   Identity and All those PHYSICAL characteristics that are united to the personality would disappear and so on!   Ignorance.. I would call it Arrogance towards the bigger picture. Humans are meant to be born, live, reproduce and die.. not be altered to start living again. That would change the whole process. AND i'm not saying this from a religious position. -- Posted by Omnipotent Pontiff at 3:58 am on Oct. 5, 2008 I would have to say that whatever constitutes a "soul" all the persons thoughts and stuff would be in the brain and would be the same even in a different body. Like if I just upgraded computer case the data is still there and it works the same just different on the outside. I don't think that it would be that drastic of an emotional shock to swap bodies as long as you were full aware of what took place. You would feel uneasy I'm sure but not be thrown into some sort of psychological break down by just your outward appearance being changed. I think you would eventually get over it. It might freak out somebody's kids or something if they hadn't fully grasped the facts of death and that people could swap bodies but not be the same person. But, for an adult yet again it may only be slightly uneasy or awkward. I'm sure they would know that their body was reused like it would have to be a donor list sort of thing. People can't just do whatever they want with your body you would have to allow them to reuse it. I don't think science should have lines. How would the world be today if Galileo had never questioned the universe? If he just accepted faith as the divine explanation for everything. What if Newton just accepted things fall because they just do. If we don't question even the simplest things and if we don't push the boundaries of morality for the sake of discovery the world would never have been what it is today. If we ever achieve the ability to swap bodies, by then I'm sure we could fully clone a human being and we wouldn't even need to feel the shock of stepping into another body. We could grow our own and just keep going from body to body. We don't even have to use a human "body" why not go bionic? The only problem then being that brain cells die off and they don't grow back and eventually we would have to just die. But, near immortality sure would be sweet. -- Posted by Natsy at 4:51 am on Oct. 5, 2008 they would still be the same person, though not the same human. i don't think its possible, because nerve tissues don't heal or grow or bond or whatever it is, so they won't be able to connect the brain and body. -- Posted by SpM at 6:10 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 4:07 am on Oct. 5, 2008 And how about the family members and friends of the donors body? If the donor explicitly stated that his/her body could be used as the recipient of a brain transplant, then the family and friends have no grounds for complaint. Most of the people would end up in a mental hospital if we talk about his realistically.. if not we several emotional traumas. Realistically, none of the data we have points to that conclusion. Identity and All those PHYSICAL characteristics that are united to the personality would disappear and so on!   People are disfigured by accident and disease all the time. It sucks, and they deal with it. Bodies are just bodies. Imagine if they did this to half of the population, we are already overpopulated.. and so on. It's not such an easy matter. It needs to be approached from different areas. Since when did brain transplants (or rather whole body transplants) = immortality? Brains die too. The only purpose of such a transplant would be to remove a healthy brain from a dying or damaged body, and as such it would only be useful for a tiny minority of people. -- Posted by Stand Up at 6:53 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from SpM at 9:10 am on Oct. 5, 2008 If the donor explicitly stated that his/her body could be used as the recipient of a brain transplant, then the family and friends have no grounds for complaint. What if they don't tell them? Just do it. The fact that they don't have no ground for complain doesn't make it any less hurtful. Realistically, none of the data we have points to that conclusion. If you were used to seeing the same face, body... everything.. they way you smile, walk, etc... and then all of a sudden you found yourself in another body.. gosh don't tell me you wouldn't have a mad breakdown, panic attack, emotional trauma... and so on!   People are disfigured by accident and disease all the time. It sucks, and they deal with it. Bodies are just bodies. Bodies are not just bodies, bodies are part of the person. It's the thing that completes the equation. Since when did brain transplants (or rather whole body transplants) = immortality? Brains die too. The only purpose of such a transplant would be to remove a healthy brain from a dying or damaged body, and as such it would only be useful for a tiny minority of people. That raises another question.. What if you were 16 and they put you on a 45 year old body.. Your brain would be going yet you'd age faster and miss half of your life.. or what? And of course at first it would be a tiny minority but I'm sure once that's done anything could happen... even the world using it as a plastic surgery option. -- Posted by Stand Up at 7:02 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from Omnipotent Pontiff at 6:58 am on Oct. 5, 2008 I don't think that it would be that drastic of an emotional shock to swap bodies as long as you were full aware of what took place. You would feel uneasy I'm sure but not be thrown into some sort of psychological break down by just your outward appearance being changed. I think you would eventually get over it.   Well I'd surely enter panic mode and probably suffer a heart attack. They would have to give me tranquilizers cuz if not I'd scream every time I see myself in the mirror. I don't think knowing would make it any easier. That would just build up the fear. I don't think I'd get over it.. I'd keep looking for myself in the mirror and ended up with an strangers reflection. I'm sure they would know that their body was reused like it would have to be a donor list sort of thing. People can't just do whatever they want with your body you would have to allow them to reuse it. They key word here is can't... yet come on.. They totally still do it.   I don't think science should have lines. How would the world be today if Galileo had never questioned the universe? If he just accepted faith as the divine explanation for everything. What if Newton just accepted things fall because they just do. If we don't question even the simplest things and if we don't push the boundaries of morality for the sake of discovery the world would never have been what it is today.   See but that's different. I'm talking about the line of human beings, with feelings and emotions. The fact that they ever got to do this.... would mean lot's of trial and error, which .. of course is dead. No harm should be done to the subject in psychology so why should harm be done to the subject in science? a living subject.. you, me, a love one...   If we ever achieve the ability to swap bodies, by then I'm sure we could fully clone a human being and we wouldn't even need to feel the shock of stepping into another body. We could grow our own and just keep going from body to body. We don't even have to use a human "body" why not go bionic? The only problem then being that brain cells die off and they don't grow back and eventually we would have to just die. But, near immortality sure would be sweet. That just sounds repulsive. The fact that we would even dream of trying to be like mother nature is scary. Imagine parents going to buy their kids and giving them all of these qualities. We would be all prefabricated humans. That's just wrong. Why alter the natural order of things. We are okay now, no need for more. -- Posted by SpM at 7:20 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 2:53 pm on Oct. 5, 2008 What if they don't tell them? Just do it. That ethical issue has nothing to do with the transplant in question. It's simply a matter of consent. The fact that they don't have no ground for complain doesn't make it any less hurtful. There's not much one can say to that but "shit happens". We cannot allow society to be governed by hurt feelings.   If you were used to seeing the same face, body... everything.. they way you smile, walk, etc... and then all of a sudden you found yourself in another body.. gosh don't tell me you wouldn't have a mad breakdown, panic attack, emotional trauma... and so on! Not personally, no. And that woman who had a face transplant a while back turned out okay. Your position has no basis beyond your personal misgivings, which are not applicable to the rest of humanity. Bodies are not just bodies, bodies are part of the person. It's the thing that completes the equation. Your body is, I'm sure, nothing like it was 5 years ago. Were you irreparably scared by that transition? If people can deal with gradual change, there's no reason they can't deal, in time, with sudden change.     That raises another question.. What if you were 16 and they put you on a 45 year old body.. Your brain would be going yet you'd age faster and miss half of your life.. or what? Such a transplant would never take place unless the alternative was death. Half a life beats no life at all. And of course at first it would be a tiny minority but I'm sure once that's done anything could happen... even the world using it as a plastic surgery option. If anything could happen, there's nothing to discuss. -- Posted by The Samsoniteman at 7:29 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 4:07 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Humans are meant to be born, live, reproduce and die.. not be altered to start living again. That would change the whole process. AND i'm not saying this from a religious position. In general I would agree with you. Assuming this is a likely outcome from science and technology within the next 20 years, steps should be made to prevent it being used too early without appropriate discussion. There are huge numbers of issues with it, which you've laid out. I'm not sure about your reasoning, though. How far should we be able to "alter" patients? Years ago, and for some people still today, "simple" transplants of organs such as kidneys and corneas would've been disturbing to people. Where do you stand on things like organ transplant, cadaveric donation, etc.? -- Posted by The Oath at 10:44 am on Oct. 5, 2008 body harvesting ftw guyz -- Posted by The Samsoniteman at 11:29 am on Oct. 5, 2008 My medical sciences building sits next to a graveyard. Woop woop. -- Posted by Stand Up at 3:15 pm on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from The Samsoniteman at 10:29 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 4:07 am on Oct. 5, 2008 Humans are meant to be born, live, reproduce and die.. not be altered to start living again. That would change the whole process. AND i'm not saying this from a religious position. In general I would agree with you. Assuming this is a likely outcome from science and technology within the next 20 years, steps should be made to prevent it being used too early without appropriate discussion. There are huge numbers of issues with it, which you've laid out. I'm not sure about your reasoning, though. How far should we be able to "alter" patients? Years ago, and for some people still today, "simple" transplants of organs such as kidneys and corneas would've been disturbing to people. Where do you stand on things like organ transplant, cadaveric donation, etc.? I'm an organ donor... I don't have any problem with them, but the issues I have is with science and the ethical issues of certain things. They too raise issues but brain transplant is just a paralyzing thought. -- Posted by Stand Up at 3:16 pm on Oct. 5, 2008 Quote: from The Oath at 1:44 pm on Oct. 5, 2008 body harvesting ftw guyz Maybe you'll get an 80 year old body. and live a for half a year... and then die from a painful death you weren't supposed to die from .. not to mention that in 6 months i hardly doubt someone would get used to not being themselves.   -- Posted by Shaknbake at 4:00 pm on Oct. 5, 2008 The person would follow the brain, as long as the brain was unchanged by the experience. It would be OK, as long as the body was donated with the knowledge and consent of the donor. -- Posted by Omnipotent Pontiff at 11:12 am on Oct. 6, 2008 Quote: from iJeannie at 7:02 am on Oct. 5, 2008 See but that's different. I'm talking about the line of human beings, with feelings and emotions. The fact that they ever got to do this.... would mean lot's of trial and error, which .. of course is dead. No harm should be done to the subject in psychology so why should harm be done to the subject in science? a living subject.. you, me, a love one... Well, no harm should be done in all fields of medicine and that's what the Hippocratic oath is for. But, in science we have to blur the lines of good and evil a little bit. Some things are clearly justified for the greater good. Harm someone today and save a million lives in the future. Seems to me that the ends would clearly justify the means. Science does what it needs to do in order to progress technology and better our lives. I'm sure a monkey or a rabbit would object to scientific testing but we torture them all the time for the sake of cosmetics. Why be so careless of their feelings? What makes them less important than humans? We do what we have to, and seeing as how there is an overflowing prison system of human filth why not at least allow them to grace the annals of scientific study. Make their meaningless lives have some purpose, a twisted irony that criminal scum, baby rapists, and murderers would give something back to society in the end just seems like a good bit of poetic justice to me. A never ending supply of human guinea pigs are just wasting away in our prison systems as we speak and you're crazy if you think that would be the most unethical action of human kind. We've done so much worse and for much stupider reasons. That just sounds repulsive. The fact that we would even dream of trying to be like mother nature is scary. Imagine parents going to buy their kids and giving them all of these qualities. We would be all prefabricated humans. That's just wrong. Why alter the natural order of things. We are okay now, no need for more. We are no longer in the days of dreaming and there's no need to try. We can replicate so much of what mother nature spent millions of years perfecting. The intricate systems of reproduction and evolution, the unlocking of DNA, our ever increasing knowledge of the human genome. Cloning has been tested, and genetic engineering too. It's only a matter of time before we get around to applying these to humans. We are gods and not through faith but modern science. What's so repulsive about it? I guess that's just your perspective. I actually think it's quite beautiful. We are "okay" now, but haven't we always been "okay". If we were satisfied by "okay" then humanity would never have progressed to where it is now. Isn't it part of the human spirit to be ever in pursuit of something better. Are you really all that satisfied with the natural order of things?