Pages: 1 2  Next -- Posted by Anonymous at 6:01 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 I've been told by my girlfriend that Paganism has existed since mankind came into existence.   I always grew up as a Christian, thinking it was all a fact, and then one day I was told it was a belief and then the person who told me that showed me all the other religions known now over the internet.. Now I am confused as hell.  I think there is a higher power, but idk what.  I have been Agnostic awhile and studying Humanism now. But yea, my girlfriend is a Pagan/Wiccan.  She says Christianity is mostly lies.  And then I have a lot of people saying Paganism/Wicca is all lies.  I just want to see my Christian counselor and my girlfriend argue over religions because they always have something to back up their thoughts and I basically put in the middle of everything!  I don't know what to do..lol I'm just on the verge right now of giving up on religion and just being an Atheist for the rest of my life.  This is also tearing up my relationship with my girlfriend (or so it seems)   Can anyone give advice/tips or just ANY kind of help????? -- Posted by RoseBeautyMagical416 at 6:03 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Here is my question what kind of advice/ tips do you want? what questions do you want answered? How doyou want to be helped? -- Posted by MR UNKNOWN at 6:03 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 well for one thing, both are full of lies and second of all, you can still have agnostic beliefs and give up on religion -- Posted by MushroomSatsujin at 6:04 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Do research. Look at all the religions that have existed. Christianity isnt the only one, just the dominant one, mostly due to very aggressive tactics used by the church. -- Posted by Rebecca li at 6:04 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 It's really all the same. Paganism came first. St.Patrick used Paganism and changed it into Christianity in Ireland. But really, it doesn't matter, cause it's all the same. -- Posted by Anonymous at 6:04 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Quote: from RoseBeautyMagical416 at 6:03 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Here is my question what kind of advice/ tips do you want? what questions do you want answered? How doyou want to be helped? I'm just confused as hell about religions in general.  Why are their so many?  How do people always have something to back up their beliefs (I know that probably sounded dumb as hell but still) -- Posted by x FENRIS x at 6:06 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 The way that you were treated was completely unfair, about what you were told about the nature of the world. No one should be TAUGHT someone else's belief. You feeling is shared with many and I sympathise with you. I know it's hard after believing something for so long, and starting from such a young age, but if you can, it might be wise to take a step back and have a think for yourself about what you think about it all. Philosophy is a good subject for those both religious and otherwise in terms of asking important questions about life, the universe and meaning. Best of luck to you. You are not alone. -- Posted by MixedDelight at 6:06 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Don't let your girlfriends beliefs ruin your relationship. -- Posted by SpM at 6:07 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 There's really not much you can do but keep studying various religions and finding one that seems rational/correct to you, or concluding that none are rational/correct. Don't treat uncertainty as a negative thing. Keep an open mind and don't expect this to resolve itself in the short term. If it's causing friction in your relationship, just don't talk about it. -- Posted by HiRyo at 6:07 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 I'm also in a similar situation. I decided just to believe in god until I'm fully ready to choose to be an atheist or follow some sort of religion. Stay agnostic for now until things calm down. I always found reading up on religions or atheism etc to help my expand my views, see what makes sense and what doesn't. :| About your gf and your counsellor, that argument will have no end. Because there is no true way to prove that they're all lies. -- Posted by MushroomSatsujin at 6:07 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Quote: from Anonymous at 6:04 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Quote: from RoseBeautyMagical416 at 6:03 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Here is my question    what kind of advice/ tips do you want?    what questions do you want answered?    How doyou want to be helped? I'm just confused as hell about religions in general. Why are their so many? How do people always have something to back up their beliefs (I know that probably sounded dumb as hell but still) Why? Because there is no right answer -- Posted by palepalepeach at 6:11 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 If you've just been introduced to this topic, you'll probably be dealing with this for a while.  Just keep trying to learn more and eventually you'll figure out for yourself what you want to believe.   And if you and your girlfriend are really good for each other, you'll get through this.  Otherwise just make the best of the time you have with her.   Any other confusions you have, feel free to message me, or the rest of the forum always enjoys new topics. -- Posted by TBMP at 6:15 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Quote: from Anonymous at 6:01 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 I've been told by my girlfriend that Paganism has existed since mankind came into existence. I always grew up as a Christian, thinking it was all a fact, and then one day I was told it was a belief and then the person who told me that showed me all the other religions known now over the internet.. Now I am confused as hell. I think there is a higher power, but idk what. I have been Agnostic awhile and studying Humanism now. But yea, my girlfriend is a Pagan/Wiccan. She says Christianity is mostly lies. And then I have a lot of people saying Paganism/Wicca is all lies. I just want to see my Christian counselor and my girlfriend argue over religions because they always have something to back up their thoughts and I basically put in the middle of everything! I don't know what to do..lol I'm just on the verge right now of giving up on religion and just being an Atheist for the rest of my life. This is also tearing up my relationship with my girlfriend (or so it seems) Can anyone give advice/tips or just ANY kind of help????? tell her she's fucked for me she aughta know that it is explicitly against the wiccan redde to talk negatively about another religion in any way, or to try and convert anyone if you have any ?s about wicca, plz PM me -- Posted by vanquisher91 at 6:22 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Okay, her "pagan/wican" is not more than 50 years old and if she says differently, she is no less ignorant than the Christian theology. "Paganism" was a term coined by the Roman Catholic Church as a demeaning phrase for the lowely "commoners" and "peasants" who, during the overthrow by Christianity, still held firm to their beliefs. Now, paganism is a sweeping generalization that incorporates any religion/faith incorporating Druidic/Shamanistic beliefs of old. The church generally calls all non-Christians pagans though. So, even though the belief in the God and Goddess as the two polar powers of the world is very ancient, predating any known belief held today, actual paganism and wican is very modern and claims to somehow have "recovered" the centuries of knowledge destroyed by churches around the globe. I, myself, am a Theravada Buddhist. I do not believe in a supreme being or "higher power", though I cannot rationally claim that their is no sentient being or beings that exist at levels higher than us. Call them Gods, Fairies, etc. , I can't really say they don't exist, but whether or not they do isn't important to the life we all have now. Agnostics, as I see it, are almost as bad as Christian fundamentalists because they make the choice to ride the fence and be ignorant their whole lives. They're either too scared to drop faith all together, or to ashamed of what being "Godless" entails. While I don't go as far as to call the average Agnostic "stupid", I do believe it is a serious flaw in reason and logic and condone the choice as "stupid". Your gf is right, Christianity is so inconceivable, that you have to will yourself to complete ignorance just to make it work. At the same time, your gf isn't any better, as she uses the same tactics they use to deface her opponents. She keeps her own faith tucked away in some logic-barren part of her brain and yet avidly attacks all other "irrational faiths". Essentially she's the 5 year old going "haha, my ball is better than your ball, and you can't tell me otherwise because you're not allowed to hurt my feelings!" It's all to easy to sit back and complain about others, and yet be ignorant to your own fallacies. My advice, educate YOURSELF! Don't rely on one source, read everything you can and not just biased doctrine. Be an adult and think objectively, for your own benefit. If your gf ends it with you because you don't side with her ignorance then, I hate to say it, but she probably isn't worth dating. Being an Atheist isn't a bad thing. I think it's amazing. It teaches you to truly appreciate your life and all it's problems for what they are, rather than relying on some "guy in the sky" to make things work. I was raised Catholic, became a Born Again Christian, and now, after all that indoctrination and brainwashing, I see how sick the whole system is and while I honestly hope that such religions can turn around and start being reasonable, I don't waste my time working for such efforts. Undoubtedly, you'll have people spouting off their mouths about how great Jesus is or whatever, but think about where that opinion is coming from. Do you honestly trust the things that go on inside other's minds? Do you even trust what happens in your mind all the time? Christianity is a mind theory, and based soley on wishful thinking and ignorance. If that makes you happy to be ignorant and degenerate yourself into a sheep, by all means, do what makes you happy. If, however, you wish to learn more about just what Atheism is and why "God" in any form is irrational, perhaps you should google famous scientists like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. Atheism needs more men like these two, to set examples for the rest of what true Atheism is about, the rational persuit of happiness, without God, Santa Clause, or the Easter Bunny. -- Posted by Shaknbake at 7:39 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Within Christian terms, any religion that isn't Christianity (or Judaism) is a pagan religion. If we choose to accept that Judaism and Christianity have finite historical roots (i.e. Christianity did not exist until the first century of the Christian calendar, and Judaism has not existed for as long as our species has) then it is fair to say that pagan religion has been with us from the start of human religious practice. However, her "paganism," her Wicca, is an invention of our time. It is much younger than Christianity. My advice to you would be to learn something about your religion before you claim to believe it; if you don't even know enough to refute her claim that "Christianity is mostly lies" how can you really claim to be a practicing Christian? -- Posted by pseudo neurosis at 11:51 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 So far everyone has tried to sell you something: be it that Wicca is bad, the etymological roots of Paganism (wtf has this to do with anything?), be an Atheists, it's what all the cool kids are doing!!!, be a Christian or ELSE, blah blah blah. You probably don't care or are more confused. Step away from the computer. Find out what you believe first. Really ask yourself "what are things I KNOW deep down inside that no one can take away from me." Once you have that, which will take some time, you can find a religion that supports your core beliefs and then you can learn what you are willing to work with  (example: can you handle a strictly regimented living style, or do you want to do whatever you want that doesn't go against your core beliefs?) Also, don't go to any religious leader until you want to know more about the religion. As in, lets say Buddhism is your thing now. Once you really want to start comitting, but aren't 100% sure, go to a Buddhist temple and talk to them to see what that is going to be like if you want the community involved. Make sure you know about the religion though, because they might try to sell you something too. Sometimes you can't have a "religion," only a spiritual path. As for your girlfriend, tell her that you need to find your own way now and that her telling you about her religion and her opinions on other religions is just making things more difficult. The time for that will come again, but right now it will only muddy the waters. Best of luck. If you have any questions, just message me. Or google "Belief-O-Matic." Sounds funny, but it's a good place to start. -- Posted by The Nowhere Man at 12:34 am on Nov. 19, 2008 Seconding Belief-o-Matic, it's surprisingly accurate (if annoyingly absent in the answers I want to give). -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 5:22 am on Nov. 19, 2008 If you're having a crisis of faith just because you found out that a religion (namely various Pagan religions) is older than Christianity and one person is telling you that Christianity is comprised of lies, I daresay that your faith wasn't that strong to begin with. So what do you do? Go out there and study what religions actually teach. Read a books. Look at websites (though this will probably result in a lot of misinformation on your part). Understand that just because your girlfriend believes a certain way doesn't mean that you have to believe a certain way. Furthermore, I'll echo what others have said: Wicca has only existed for ~80 years at the very most and 50 years at the very least. Ask your girlfriend if she knows about Gerald Gardner or the 161 laws. If she says no, ask how she can possibly call her self a Wiccan without knowing who the founder of Wicca is or the laws of the religion. Should be fun. -- Posted by pseudo neurosis at 10:18 am on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 6:22 am on Nov. 19, 2008 If you're having a crisis of faith just because you found out that a religion (namely various Pagan religions) is older than Christianity and one person is telling you that Christianity is comprised of lies, I daresay that your faith wasn't that strong to begin with.   So what do you do? Go out there and study what religions actually teach. Read a books. Look at websites (though this will probably result in a lot of misinformation on your part). Understand that just because your girlfriend believes a certain way doesn't mean that you have to believe a certain way.   Furthermore, I'll echo what others have said: Wicca has only existed for ~80 years at the very most and 50 years at the very least. Ask your girlfriend if she knows about Gerald Gardner or the 161 laws. If she says no, ask how she can possibly call her self a Wiccan without knowing who the founder of Wicca is or the laws of the religion. Should be fun. This is a good strategy for a debate, but that's supposed to help their relationship how? I don't care how inaccurate I am about something, if my boyfriend was that  antagonistic towards me about the inaccuracy, it would only show me he was a dick and didn't give a shit about me, my feelings, or my understanding of the subject. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 11:54 am on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from pseudo neurosis at 1:18 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 6:22 am on Nov. 19, 2008 If you're having a crisis of faith just because you found out that a religion (namely various Pagan religions) is older than Christianity and one person is telling you that Christianity is comprised of lies, I daresay that your faith wasn't that strong to begin with.  So what do you do? Go out there and study what religions actually teach. Read a books. Look at websites (though this will probably result in a lot of misinformation on your part). Understand that just because your girlfriend believes a certain way doesn't mean that you have to believe a certain way.  Furthermore, I'll echo what others have said: Wicca has only existed for ~80 years at the very most and 50 years at the very least. Ask your girlfriend if she knows about Gerald Gardner or the 161 laws. If she says no, ask how she can possibly call her self a Wiccan without knowing who the founder of Wicca is or the laws of the religion. Should be fun. This is a good strategy for a debate, but that's supposed to help their relationship how? I don't care how inaccurate I am about something, if my boyfriend was that antagonistic towards me about the inaccuracy, it would only show me he was a dick and didn't give a shit about me, my feelings, or my understanding of the subject. Or that he does give a shit about you, your feelings and your understanding of the subject and therefore wants to make sure that you actually want to follow what you're following and actually understand it. Generally speaking, correcting someone isn't a way to be an asshole; it's a way to correct them. -- Posted by Wilder at 1:17 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Agnostics, as I see it, are almost as bad as Christian fundamentalists because they make the choice to ride the fence and be ignorant their whole lives. They're either too scared to drop faith all together, or to ashamed of what being "Godless" entails. While I don't go as far as to call the average Agnostic "stupid", I do believe it is a serious flaw in reason and logic and condone the choice as "stupid". Apparently you don't know what agnosticism is, as you are an agnostic. -- Posted by pseudo neurosis at 3:36 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 12:54 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from pseudo neurosis at 1:18 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 6:22 am on Nov. 19, 2008 If you're having a crisis of faith just because you found out that a religion (namely various Pagan religions) is older than Christianity and one person is telling you that Christianity is comprised of lies, I daresay that your faith wasn't that strong to begin with.       So what do you do? Go out there and study what religions actually teach. Read a books. Look at websites (though this will probably result in a lot of misinformation on your part). Understand that just because your girlfriend believes a certain way doesn't mean that you have to believe a certain way.       Furthermore, I'll echo what others have said: Wicca has only existed for ~80 years at the very most and 50 years at the very least. Ask your girlfriend if she knows about Gerald Gardner or the 161 laws. If she says no, ask how she can possibly call her self a Wiccan without knowing who the founder of Wicca is or the laws of the religion. Should be fun.    This is a good strategy for a debate, but that's supposed to help their relationship how? I don't care how inaccurate I am about something, if my boyfriend was that  antagonistic towards me about the inaccuracy, it would only show me he was a dick and didn't give a shit about me, my feelings, or my understanding of the subject. Or that he does give a shit about you, your feelings and your understanding of the subject and therefore wants to make sure that you actually want to follow what you're following and actually understand it. Generally speaking, correcting someone isn't a way to be an asshole; it's a way to correct them. But your approach is not appropriate for a romantic couple. A relationship is about compromise also, not about everything being right, or correct. It is important that she know what she is really doing, but that is for her to realize. Yes, he can tell her "you should really find out more information on your own religion before saying things about others." And if she doesn't find out more information, so what? If he can live with her inaccuracies and indiscretions (which you do when you're romantically involved), then she should do the same. If they can't, they should see other people that they are more compatible with. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 4:14 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from pseudo neurosis at 6:36 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 But your approach is not appropriate for a romantic couple. A relationship is about compromise also, not about everything being right, or correct. It is important that she know what she is really doing, but that is for her to realize. Yes, he can tell her "you should really find out more information on your own religion before saying things about others." And if she doesn't find out more information, so what? If he can live with her inaccuracies and indiscretions (which you do when you're romantically involved), then she should do the same. If they can't, they should see other people that they are more compatible with. ...no. Sorry, but letting someone continue to do something inaccurate and false isn't loving them. It's avoiding making waves so that you can still get laid. When you really and truly love someone (which can be a difficult concept for teenagers to grasp, I know, I was there), you're honest with them and you tell them if what they're believing is a bit off. Personally, I would be extremely offended if my fiance didn't tell me when I was speaking of things inaccurately or incorrectly; I know and trust him, and I'd rather that he correct me than that he let me humiliate myself when I start saying something similar in front of someone who actually knows what they're talking about. So, no. Sorry, but no. Your "don't rock the boat" approach may work for people who are only in it for the nookie, but for an actual relationship, it doesn't work at all. It's not a question of compromise; it's a question of allowing the person you love a little embarrassment now so that they can avoid a larger humiliation later. -- Posted by pseudo neurosis at 4:48 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 5:14 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from pseudo neurosis at 6:36 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 But your approach is not appropriate for a romantic couple. A relationship is about compromise also, not about everything being right, or correct. It is important that she know what she is really doing, but that is for her to realize. Yes, he can tell her "you should really find out more information on your own religion before saying things about others." And if she doesn't find out more information, so what? If he can live with her inaccuracies and indiscretions (which you do when you're romantically involved), then she should do the same. If they can't, they should see other people that they are more compatible with. ...no. Sorry, but letting someone continue to do something inaccurate and false isn't loving them. It's avoiding making waves so that you can still get laid. When you really and truly love someone (which can be a difficult concept for teenagers to grasp, I know, I was there), you're honest with them and you tell them if what they're believing is a bit off. Personally, I would be extremely offended if my fiance didn't tell me when I was speaking of things inaccurately or incorrectly; I know and trust him, and I'd rather that he correct me than that he let me humiliate myself when I start saying something similar in front of someone who actually knows what they're talking about.   So, no. Sorry, but no. Your "don't rock the boat" approach may work for people who are only in it for the nookie, but for an actual relationship, it doesn't work at all. It's not a question of compromise; it's a question of allowing the person you love a little embarrassment now so that they can avoid a larger humiliation later. I've been with my fiance for 5 years. Between us we've had lots and lots of debates, and disagreements, and I knew something and it wasn't right, and he knew something and he wasn't right. Compromise is something we still have to work at. I'm a control freak and he likes to do things in his own learning style way. I like to stay home to recharge, he likes to go out. We compromise by me letting up the control freak part a bit and letting him take over things half of the time. We also compromise by us going out a couple nights a week and staying home a couple nights a week. He's a non-theist, I'm a Neo-Pagan. I talk to him about my religion sometimes and he talks to me about his spirituality sometimes. He has some ideas I think are stupid (like his plan on how to rid AIDS) and I have some ideas he thinks are stupid (like rehabilitation instead of capital punishment. That's what I mean by compromise. We see each other's point and work with it until we're both happy. Now. Example of what I'm talking about (I'm thinking that I'm just not getting my message across because I haven't developed it in text; examples are easier for me, hopefully for you too): (This is a real conversation we had, by the way) Me: Do you know about Asatru? The Recon Norse Pagan Religion? I've been interested for quite some time. Him: You mean you want to be a Viking? Me: No, Vikings do something different. Him: Well, you said Norse. Norwegian, you know, Vikings. Odin and all that is Viking stuff. Me: Asatru wasn't even around til like the 70's. It's based on Germanic Paganism, which is dead and pre-Christian. The Vikings were circa 700 BCE. So... just because of the timeline, it couldn't be Viking stuff. Him: Okay. Cool. What I got from you is that he should go to his girlfriend and say "You need to learn about your religion, because I read online from a bunch of people that I don't know that you don't know shit!" Which would be seriously antagonistic. If you come off like you want a fight to someone, they're going to immediately become defensive, which leads to no resolution and could lead to a break-up, over time. Best idea, and it just came to me, why don't they look it up together? Informative and totally non-aggressive, plus, they're together and it will hopefully make them bond closer. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 8:38 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Where did I say that he should take that approach? It's a valid point: how can you call yourself a member of a religion if you don't even know who the founder is? -- Posted by pseudo neurosis at 9:21 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 9:38 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Where did I say that he should take that approach? It's a valid point: how can you call yourself a member of a religion if you don't even know who the founder is? I guess that was a misunderstanding on my part and I apologize. It is a very valid point and I agree with you, she doesn't have a right to call herself Wiccan if she has these ignorances. But for the sake of their relationship, it may not be their biggest issue. I think what I said stands though: they look it up together, and he can then find out more, accurate, information on other religions as well. -- Posted by obvious child at 11:50 pm on Nov. 19, 2008 Quote: from Anonymous at 4:01 pm on Nov. 18, 2008 Can anyone give advice/tips or just ANY kind of help????? "Maybe God doesn't care how you say your prayers, just as long as you say them" - Jeffery Sinclair -- Posted by envythesin at 6:12 am on Nov. 21, 2008 Religion is all a personnal thing. I wish to become wiccan/pagan. Paganism has been around for a long time, seeing that the first humanoid beings (Not Adam and Eve) probably preached to the Sun god (which is what paganism is about, it's not devil worship, you say it is, and I'll hunt you down). I am partially anti-christ because of the stupid things some of them have been doing lately. Christianity isn't necesarily all lies, but it will be hard to tell if it is true or not because of A) lack of some important physical evidence, and B) how long ago it happened. Religion is, once again, a personal thing. Believe what you want. [url]http://www.religioustolerance.org/ is a website which says plenty of things about all religions. Check it out and decide for yourself. -- Posted by LittleBombs at 9:47 am on Nov. 21, 2008 I am Wiccan, have been so for years. And honestly - there is no right or wrong. Christianity helps so many people in their day to day lifes, and so does Paganism and other religions. I know that alot of people say that Christians stole our holidays - like Yule (aka Christmas). As Jesus wasn't really born on the 25th December. And there are tons of other things which Christians stole from us - according to some people. None of us will truly know really. It's just belief in ourselves. I would never ever say Christians are liars. BUT there is a fine line until they start saying Pagans are evil or whatever. Cause that is lies. Paganism has in a sense existed in the beginning. Like people worshipped earth and the moon and stars and they held life very highly - and that is basically what many Pagans do now. Though it more along the lines of respecting those things, rather than worship. We have deities for that. Don't let it get between you and your girlfriend. All you have to realise is that there are different beliefs, and no one is really right or wrong. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 9:50 am on Nov. 21, 2008 Quote: from LittleBombs at 12:47 pm on Nov. 21, 2008 I am Wiccan, have been so for years. And honestly - there is no right or wrong. Christianity helps so many people in their day to day lifes, and so does Paganism and other religions. I know that alot of people say that Christians stole our holidays - like Yule (aka Christmas). As Jesus wasn't really born on the 25th December. And there are tons of other things which Christians stole from us - according to some people. None of us will truly know really. It's just belief in ourselves. I would never ever say Christians are liars. BUT there is a fine line until they start saying Pagans are evil or whatever. Cause that is lies. Paganism has in a sense existed in the beginning. Like people worshipped earth and the moon and stars and they held life very highly - and that is basically what many Pagans do now. Though it more along the lines of respecting those things, rather than worship. We have deities for that. Don't let it get between you and your girlfriend. All you have to realise is that there are different beliefs, and no one is really right or wrong. Wait, are you a Wiccan or just a general Pagan? Because Wicca hasn't existed long enough for Christianity to steal anything from it. Pages: 1 2  Next