LiveWire Peer Support NetworkPrintable Version of Topic "Is it really right to continue lying to kids about Santa Clause?"
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-- Posted by Bearsy at 6:49 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 I had some trouble trusting my parents after I found out, and I remember the moment still because it really shook my perception of reality. Before learning about sex and Santa, I was determined that there had to be a God and that the miracle of how when couples fell in love babies just came, and how Santa did what he did were both solid proof. I was really hurt to realize that I couldn't trust my parents anymore and will always remember that exact moment in third grade. It was kind of horrible. Besides that, there's really no explaining why Santa always thinks your rich friends have been much more good this year than you. I don't even like the message "You should be a good person because you'll be rewarded with presents" but that just makes it worse.
-- Posted by matto at 6:53 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Have you seen "Miracle on 34th Street"? I guess I kind of figured it out on my own. My parents never told me there was no santa.
-- Posted by Bearsy at 6:54 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 I know people justify it with "We're giving kids happiness by shielding them from the truth" but to me that's worse. "Good news sir, your wife is miraculously unharmed! No, no, I'm kidding, she's dead but I'm glad to have given you that moment of joy."
-- Posted by Bearsy at 6:55 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Quote: from matto at 6:53 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Almost no one's parents tell them, most of us had to learn the truth from other sources. no I don't think I've seen that
-- Posted by matto at 6:58 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 The original is a classic. It makes the argument that pretending that santa clause is real is no different than any of the other imaginary games that children play, and that there is nothing wrong with childhood adventurism and fantasy and lack of truth. I don't see any harm in children believing in santa, other than the blind consumerism that results.
-- Posted by blackbandaid at 6:59 pm on Dec. 14, 2008
I don't know...I think I asked my parents because I always knew it wasn't real. I never believed them in the first place. I just don't think they were very convincing liars.
-- Posted by Bearsy at 6:59 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Quote: from matto at 6:58 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Here's the thing: When kids play imaginary games, they KNOW it's just pretend. The Santa lie is outright deception. There is no lack of truth when they read about the princess and the pea or play those types of games. Plus, how is a judgmental fat man giving you presents better than your parents giving you presents, other than that it's easier to threaten your kids with fat man because they're more likely to believe that he'll actually withhold your presents?
-- Posted by Bearsy at 7:02 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Quote: from blackbandaid at 6:59 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 When I asked my parents about plotholes they continued to exaggerate the lie. They never, ever owned up to lying to me and distorting my perception of reality. People are going to, as always, accuse me of being overdramatic but it was like a big thing for me.
-- Posted by Bearsy at 7:10 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Also, I think it would be easier if kids were taught from the start what an animal's death really was so they could accept it as reality rather than making them try to kid themselves for years that their dog went to heaven.
-- Posted by blackbandaid at 7:12 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Quote: from Its Bearsy Bitch at 4:10 pm on Dec. 15, 2008
It has indeed been proven that it is damaging to tell young children that 'Mummy's gone to sleep for a long time' etc. and other euphemisms, because they get confused, and also can become very afraid of going to sleep, even later in life when they know the truth. It only makes the mystery of death worse, when it is shrouded in euphemisms and lies.
-- Posted by tell me again at 8:00 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 I don't really see the point of Santa Claus, or any of those figures, like the Tooth Fairy.. I've never believed in such things. So maybe I'm biased.
-- Posted by tell me again at 8:01 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Quote: from matto at 6:58 pm on Dec. 14, 2008
Where's adventurism and fantasy in a myth that they didn't create?
-- Posted by airemaye at 8:22 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 After my father died, I stopped believing in pretty much everything. I was always that kid who asked questions like "How does Santa climb down chimneys? He's fat, after all. Not even a normal-sized person could fit through there?" and "Why does he take the trouble to climb down chimneys when he could just come in the front door?" and "There's no possible way he could fly to every house in the world in one night." and "What does Santa even have to do with Christmas?" My mom didn't even bother to try to answer my questions.
-- Posted by Bearsy at 10:23 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 Quote: from airemaye at 8:22 pm on Dec. 14, 2008 My mom always answered that stuff "magic"
-- Posted by Colleen35 at 4:33 am on Dec. 15, 2008 It's no different than teaching any other cultural lie, like 'the policeman will always help you', 'your teachers are always right', 'going to college will get you a job', 'homeless people are crazy', 'gay people are going to hell', etc etc. It might even be less damaging, because it doesn't impact interactions with other people. People like to believe things, and they like to pass beliefs on in the hopes that their children will like believing them.
-- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 5:07 am on Dec. 15, 2008 I actually got into an argument with my fiance about this--he wants to tell our hypothetical future kids that there is a Santa Claus because, as he said, it brings more magic and joy to the season. I, on the other hand, was raised from the age of probably about three (which was about as soon as you can really understand these things) to understand that there wasn't a Santa Claus and that my parents were just pretending. It ended up turning into a Santa Claus "game" where we all pretended that my parents were Santa Claus, while all knowing the truth. The reason, of course, for the argument was that I agree with what my parents did. I don't see any reason to lie to your kids about this particular subject--it doesn't bring them any benefit (whereas telling them that school will help them get a job encourages them to stay in school and not quit just because; whereas telling them that policemen are there to help encourages them to go to the police if they're ever in danger) and can result in an unnecessary loss of trust.
-- Posted by fenrir at 5:14 am on Dec. 15, 2008 I like to look at it as a freedom to prolong one's innocence in order to instill any number of ideals of morality, kindness, consideration, receptiveness, humility, curiosity, and child-like wonder and amazement. You are committing no sin, nor harm to a child for simply appealing to an imaginative process in the hope of your child be willing to be good upward toward their being rewarded as an outcome. Another question for you would be not whether to inform children of there being a Santa Claus, but what moderator possibly thought that you were even remotely comparable to intellectual status?
-- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 7:45 am on Dec. 15, 2008 Quote: from fenrir at 8:14 am on Dec. 15, 2008
It's not a sin to lie?
-- Posted by fenrir at 8:37 am on Dec. 15, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 9:45 am on Dec. 15, 2008 Not when the purpose is to prolong one's sense of innocence or child-like wonder and amazement. A child need not know what it means to suffer sacrifice or real-world situations if at all possible, Abby. And if we were to quote verbatim of "Do not bear false witness [or accounts].." from the Ten Commandments, one's perception of a mythical and benevolent giver is not in any possible way condoning immorality, selfishness, or deceit. 
-- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 9:01 am on Dec. 15, 2008 Except that I know plenty of people who have more of a sense of child-like wonder and amazement without ever having believed in Santa Claus than those who do--and they actually still trust their parents, to boot.
-- Posted by fenrir at 11:04 am on Dec. 15, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 11:01 am on Dec. 15, 2008 I know plenty of children who weren't beaten by their parents, as well, but you still have yet to equate telling children fairy tales as a reason or example of distrust. I remember reading, "When I was a child, I reasoned as a child, I played like a child.. I was a child. However, once I grew up and joined the world of Adults, I was forced to put aside my childish pursuits before me." Why must children cease be children at the expense of ignorantly clinging to fascination? This is where I'd simply say, "To each their own, my dear. To each their own." My girlfriend, who is a hardcore Christian, and I have both agreed that it isn't morally wrong for us to simply tell our children a fable in order to help them understand the importance of hard work eventually being rewarded. Personally, if my children come to the understanding later on in life that there isn't a Santa, they'll know that we both still care for them and the presents will keep coming regardless.
-- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 12:15 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 There's a difference between telling your children a story that you and they both know isn't true (e.g. "Cinderella" or "Snow White") and telling them something is true when it isn't. Telling them that there's a Santa Claus isn't like reading them "The Three Little Pigs" before they go to bed; it's like telling them that the Three Little Pigs are going to come visit them and that if they're not good, the Big Bad Wolf will blow their house down. Not only that, but as a Christian, that idea of "earning" blessings disgusts me--we're not blessed because we deserve it. We're blessed because we're loved by God. That's a model I'd rather see practiced, rather than telling my kids things that have the potential to keep them up all night on Christmas Eve, panicking about whether or not Santa Claus knows that they ate four cookies when Mommy only said they could have three way back in July. Frankly, when you remove the sentimentality attached to it by people who seem to have some sort of strange attachment to the idea of Santa Claus, it's a horrible thing to do to your children--to tell them that someone is going to break into their house on Christmas Eve and, if they were the slightest bit less than perfect all year long, deny them Christmas gifts. And then, to boot, if you look at it in a positive light, it's all a lie! What kinds of values are you teaching your kids when you do that?
-- Posted by Event Horizon at 3:13 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 Quote: from Its Bearsy Bitch at 9:54 pm on Dec. 14, 2008
Or: "Good news 5 year old, there is a jolly man who gives you presents every year!!" ...**wait for the kids to get older** "So, remember that jolly man who gave you presents every year, well as you've probably figured out by now, he doesn't exist. IT WAS ME who was giving you ALL THOSE PRESENTS." Yea, kids will really resent THAT...
-- Posted by Event Horizon at 3:21 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 3:15 pm on Dec. 15, 2008
Its called positive response conditioning. If you give a bunch of presents to a kid whose been good all year, he will continue to be good all year. If you tell him that if he is bad he wont get any presents, then he will likely be good [until you have to tell him again] to get those presents at christmas. I'd like to see you attempt to explain the logic behind christian blessings to a 4 year old. Then tell him --you receive these gifts because God loves you, not because you were good, and then try to get him to behave... Kids don't typically think of Santa as some intruder, they see him as a magical fellow who GIVES THEM SHIT. Kids love it. Parents love it --except for the buying things part. And when the kids are old enough, they'll understand. You really felt resentment because your parents lied about Santa Claus? Maybe you should have given back all your presents, since they were the products of lies. Holding resentment there just seems a bit unfair if you ask me.
-- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 4:10 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 LOL Do you know what assuming does, EH? My parents told us from the time we were old enough to understand that there was no Santa Claus (as I stated earlier in this thread). They made sure that we understood, from an early age, that these presents weren't rewards for being good, but rather that they were blessings because they loved us. We understood the concept of blessings from an early age because of that--it's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp. As to getting kids to behave, that's utterly ridiculous. I don't know any kids who behaved throughout the year because Santa was supposedly watching them...I knew far more who behaved throughout the year because if they didn't behave, there was some sort of punishment waiting for them at home (whether it was a grounding, some sort of corporal punishment, or those odd parents who made them write lines). You're not thinking of Santa Claus when you force your younger sibling to eat mud in July or in February when you cut a hole in another boy's T-shirt. The Santa Claus thing may work in the month or so leading up to Christmas, but between teaching, counselling kids' camp, baby-sitting and personally knowing a lot of kids, they're more likely to laugh at you when you bring up Santa Claus in the summertime than they are to actually start behaving. So really...don't assume things.
-- Posted by Event Horizon at 4:20 pm on Dec. 15, 2008
Sorry 'bout that. As for the bit about behavior. 2) I was not claiming that Christmas is a behavior tool, so responding to that as the majority of your post was kind of silly, don't you think?
-- Posted by fenrir at 4:42 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 First, when I made the comment "earning rewards" in relation to children, I wasn't mentioning a Theological mindset of "earning their way into Heaven" nor anything of the sort. I'd argue that if you have children work toward upholding what their parents teach and tell them for what is right [Within reason and overall spirit of morality and obedience of children] in relation to how parents reward their children for good behavior. Although I'd humbly accept any notion where I reward my children solely for the sake of them being my children, I'd want them to at the very least mind me in assumption that disobedience does, in fact, hold certain consequences that they'd dislike or be mindful of. Second, if you so chose to tell your children any number of fables as to instill a particular set of moral values, I'd say that you still haven't committed any falsehood besides adhering to your particular preference. You and I can argue the differences between upholding the curiousness of child-like wonder, but it'd merely go directly to one's personal philosophy for how to raise children. Third, I know that you are a proponent of premarital sex, as am I, but my girlfriend will argue tooth-and-nail for how and why premarital sex is not only wrong, but it destroys the religious implications of a positive and beneficial relationship. If you to debate with anyone who believed contrary to your particular adherence, is it not their personal right in order to disagree? People naturally and inevitably disagree over the matter of preference when compared with how we essentially view as morality, and yet, how a particular action might violate a person's conscience is not exhaustive when compared to preference. Not arguing that morality is relative, but one's authority in order to dictate what is acceptable generally hasn't anything to do besides one's ability to interpret for themselves. Finally, a child doesn't have the same reasoning potential as you and I, because their logic isn't necessarily refined in order to associate the precise logistics of breaking-and-entering, time manipulation, instantaneous [teleportation] travel, etc. besides their imagination in order to process. However, you have yet to fully write anything definitive that states it is morally unacceptable for one to believe in a mythical being that adheres to a purposefully GOOD outlook of morality.
-- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 5:54 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 I'm talking about lying, not the kids believing in Santa. There's nothing moral or immoral about that. But basically, tl;dr version? You haven't got an argument. That's cool. EH...the other thing that calms kids down is "if you don't stop screaming, I'm going to give you a reason to scream." Shut my siblings right up when they were of that age, no Santa Claus needed.
-- Posted by Bearsy at 5:54 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 Can any of you imagine actually teaching kids to be good for goodness's sake?
-- Posted by Bearsy at 5:57 pm on Dec. 15, 2008 Fun fact: Kids are more likely to tell the truth after hearing the fable of how George Washington told the truth about cutting down the cherry tree because he simply would not tell a lie than when they heard The Boy Who Cried Wolf. |
Have you seen "Miracle on 34th Street"? 
