-- Posted by iconoclast at 7:45 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 The problem is, the fundamental underlying political processes in this country and much of the world are royally screwed up. If you don't have a good foundation, your house, or worse yet, very-tall building is going to really fucking suck. Our legislature is a bloated, slow moving entity in which many initiatives depend more on pork and painting a good image than actually getting something done. Bad laws are slow to get removed for similar reasons, and few people in government outright question them for fear of being attacked. The legal system functions more on knee-jerk responses than intelligent thought and careful consideration. So, no matter how much 'change' you push, the same shit will happen again and again and again, as long as the underlying foundations of the system are messed up like this. Reminds me of LiveWire a bit, actually. -- Posted by I like tuhtles at 7:45 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 CHANGE?  DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY CHANNNGGGE? -- Posted by iconoclast at 7:47 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 Quote: from I like tuhtles at 10:45 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 CHANGE? DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY CHANNNGGGE? Change we can believe in? -- Posted by Takinam at 7:49 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 What does resolving to change have to do with the fact that you haven't changed yet? You want to change, and you want to incur change because you realize the problems you've just stated in your opinions. There is no worthlessness ns "changing", or willing to inspire "change", even if it seems unlikely. If you don't wish to speed up the slow-moving legislature or rectify the bad laws, then why complain? If you don't want to at least try to do something, then it will stay the same. Only then will change be a worthless ideal; when it is quoted and never attempted. When it becomes conjecture and no foundation in reality? Why not try when you have nothing to lose and everything to gain? -- Posted by iconoclast at 7:52 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 Quote: from Takinam at 10:49 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 What does resolving to change have to do with the fact that you haven't changed yet? You want to change, and you want to incur change because you realize the problems you've just stated in your opinions. There is no worthlessness is "changing", or willing to inspire "change", even if it seems unlikely. If you don't wish to speed up the slow-moving legislature or rectify the bad laws, then why complain? If you don't want to at least try to do something, then it will stay the same. Why not try when you have nothing to lose and everything to gain? Because until you have a critical mass, you will do nothing. And it's unlikely that that critical mass will ever be achieved on its own under current conditions or future, with the way people are being kept ignorant. Trying to change something that will do nothing is a waste of energy, which is something to lose, and continuing to talk about 'change' when your 'change' will do nothing is something to lose. Something out of our control is going to have to happen first. -- Posted by iconoclast at 7:54 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 You're missing the point though, change can no longer happen from within the system because the system is so royally fucked. It has to happen from outside the system, which means some kind of cataclysm. -- Posted by Takinam at 8:04 pm on Jan. 6, 2009  Why not try when you have nothing to lose and everything to gain? Because until you have a critical mass, you will do nothing. And it's unlikely that that critical mass will ever be achieved on its own under current conditions or future, with the way people are being kept ignorant. Trying to change something that will do nothing is a waste of energy, which is something to lose, and continuing to talk about 'change' when your 'change' will do nothing is something to lose. Something out of our control is going to have to happen first. ^^ Are you quoting Obama here? I honestly thought you were talking about the definition of change. Lol. And critical mass isn't unattainable especially in this time. Spin some news about the economy failing and the majority starts freaking out. Just pitch the right message all the time and have the people in power believing in what you want to do. And if you attempt change, and change happens, then you have achieved something. Reviewing a bad law or sparking more productive debate in congress isn't unattainable. Find the right people and find the right avenues and you already have your answers. A waste of energy would be an attempt at change without results. And yes, it wouldn't help. But I think the positives outweigh the negatives of trying to change so it is an endeavor one can seriously undertake. -- Posted by iconoclast at 8:59 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 It has to be a lot more than just 'people freaking out'. I meant, the system has to crumble, and the right people have to play their cards right. And that's nowhere in sight. Critical mass meaning, enough people are truly aware of the fundamental flaws with our society and badly want to do something about them. Few, are. Reviewing a bad law or sparking some 'discussion' is utterly worthless, because as long as the system remains, new problems will just rise up where one was before. -- Posted by Jettie12 at 9:12 pm on Jan. 6, 2009 This topic is about 6 months overdue. -- Posted by iconoclast at 11:31 am on Jan. 7, 2009 Yeah, it's not necessarily all about the obama thing though, though that is relevant.... -- Posted by Wilder at 2:49 pm on Jan. 7, 2009 So basically we have to ________ the underlying foundations of government/ society? -- Posted by iconoclast at 8:27 pm on Jan. 7, 2009 If we want anything meaningful, yeah.