Pages: 1 2  Next -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 8:26 pm on July 3, 2009 I'm sorry if this is somewhat incoherent. I just happened to have my divine inspiration at 11:15 I guess. The Catholic Church kills faith. I've spoken to several people on LW and I've experienced it myself. The Catholic Church kills faith. Catholic children are raised on a pulpit of doctrine. A priest stands in front of them every Sunday and says "you must do this, you must do that." The whole denomination reeks of authoritarianism. After a while, after one grows up a bit, they realize "this is dumb, none of this applies to the modern world" and they throw out their faith in the Catholic Church and along with it they throw out their faith in God. I was thirteen when I had my break. By then I was already kind of catching on, but I was still just going with the flow. It was my Confirmation that ironically knocked the faith right out of me. For sixteen weeks, every Sunday, I was stuck in a room in a church with about twenty other kids. A bunch of them never paid a shred of attention, one always provocatively cut an apple with a pocket-knife, and some even slept openly. Bottom line: about two thirds of us didn't want to be there. And that is how I first realized the extent to which the Church goes to indoctrinate people. More than half of the people who get confirmed do it unwillingly. Wow, what a joke. So I went on my way.   A year or so later I found God, for the first time really. And my relationship with him or her or it is a wholly personal one that relies on no book, no priest. There is nothing about this God that suggests he's 'a joke' or 'a scam' or a spiritual dictator. He's just God, and that's the way God should be. So to all those alienated by the dogma of some religion: does your dislike of some Earthly institution equate to a dislike or disbelief in the very concept of God? Don't let it. If you really hate/disbelieve in God, so be it. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't shun God when you shun your Church. They are not one in the same. -- Posted by Descartes at 8:28 pm on July 3, 2009 I enjoyed reading this. -- Posted by HideOrSeek at 8:29 pm on July 3, 2009 I absolutely agree with you. That's exactly how I feel about God. -- Posted by Descartes at 8:30 pm on July 3, 2009 Religion is man's way of putting god in a fucking box. -- Posted by Magnifique at 8:30 pm on July 3, 2009 I definitely agree with this. -- Posted by Veldel at 8:43 pm on July 3, 2009 I agree with this but I think its all Religions that do it. -- Posted by RayOrama at 8:51 pm on July 3, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 11:26 pm on July 3, 2009 A priest stands in front of them every Sunday and says "you must do this, you must do that." The whole denomination reeks of authoritarianism. Nobody can kill your faith in God if it's strong. I don't mean to preach here because I'm not really a militant Catholic, But you are wrong on a few things. Priests never say "you must do this, you must do that". A Cathoilic priest always says: "we must do this, we must do that". Protestant ministers are the ones who point fingers and say "you".Catholiscism is as authoritarian as God himself. It used to take no prisoners. That's one of the reasons why it has survived and how it managed to keep Islam out of western society. It even kicked the Moors out of Spain after about 600 centuries of Islamic rule. Catholics don't believe salvation is individual but collective. Believing in God and accepting him in your life isn't enough. You have to prove your worth to him every single day through good deeds done onto others. Protestants believe in individual salvation which explains the ideas about the rapture. Accept God as your personal savior and you're set. Let the others find their own way because now you can sit and wait for judgement day in peace. -- Posted by uscmedic at 5:36 am on July 4, 2009 You obviously do not understand the Catholic Church. You grew to hate it at such a young age it doesn't surprise me. I chose to join the Church last year when I was 24. Instead of taking offense to everything because you were "forced to do it", you should educate yourself on why things are done. I agree with RayOrama. No one points fingers are the individual like that and the priest certainly doesn't say anything like that in his homily. Catholicism is a family. When one person falls, the entire familiy is hurt from it, not just you. The problem all started with the situation you're in now. People didn't like this or that, so they left to change it. Instead, you need to know why the Church does this or that. It's all historically accurate, it's all Biblically sound and it's all what it was then. Unfortunately, too many people spread false information about Catolicism including uneducated Catholics. -- Posted by Moridin at 6:35 am on July 4, 2009 What is a belief in a personal god without an associated religious doctrine? Nothing but a vague haze of irrationality. -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 7:37 am on July 4, 2009 The validity of the doctrine and the past deeds of Catholics are irrelevant. I was forced to be Catholic and that's the source of my disillusionment. You can't build a kingdom on the backs of the unwilling, unless you're Egyptian. My priest most certainly said 'you'. He did say a lot of 'we''s but it was mostly 'you'. Quote: from Moridin at 6:35 am on July 4, 2009 What is a belief in a personal god without an associated religious doctrine? Nothing but a vague haze of irrationality. I'd hate to see what comes from studying 100 religious texts that no one knows the true meaning of then. If God is the omnipotent father that we all believe he is, I think he is perfectly capable of giving individual guidance to each and every one of his children should they ask. -- Posted by Moridin at 7:52 am on July 4, 2009 Most of the world religious make equally retarded and equally contradictory statements, so that seems highly unlikely. -- Posted by osmoticdespair at 9:13 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 3:37 pm on July 4, 2009 I'd hate to see what comes from studying 100 religious texts that no one knows the true meaning of then. If God is the omnipotent father that we all believe he is, I think he is perfectly capable of giving individual guidance to each and every one of his children should they ask. But is that individual guidance "avoid organised religion"? Perhaps God founded the Church for a reason. Of course He can do anything anyway He pleases, but that doesn't mean the particular way it pleased Him to do it is the way any individual thinks. Especially since the ideology of individualism is very new and for most of history man has interacted with God not only alone but in community. -- Posted by Moridin at 9:16 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 7:13 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 3:37 pm on July 4, 2009  I'd hate to see what comes from studying 100 religious texts that no one knows the true meaning of then. If God is the omnipotent father that we all believe he is, I think he is perfectly capable of giving individual guidance to each and every one of his children should they ask. But is that individual guidance "avoid organised religion"? Perhaps God founded the Church for a reason. Of course He can do anything anyway He pleases, but that doesn't mean the particular way it pleased Him to do it is the way any individual thinks. Especially since the ideology of individualism is very new and for most of history man has interacted with God not only alone but in community. Except for Adam, Cain, Abraham and all of those people. -- Posted by osmoticdespair at 9:19 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from Moridin at 5:16 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 7:13 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 3:37 pm on July 4, 2009 I'd hate to see what comes from studying 100 religious texts that no one knows the true meaning of then. If God is the omnipotent father that we all believe he is, I think he is perfectly capable of giving individual guidance to each and every one of his children should they ask. But is that individual guidance "avoid organised religion"? Perhaps God founded the Church for a reason. Of course He can do anything anyway He pleases, but that doesn't mean the particular way it pleased Him to do it is the way any individual thinks. Especially since the ideology of individualism is very new and for most of history man has interacted with God not only alone but in community.   Except for Adam, Cain, Abraham and all of those people. Fair point, but the communities that later interacted did so through growing out of their (most of their at least) loins. Abraham's interaction with God is still within a community, just that it is a community of which he is the origin and which is after him in time. -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 12:37 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from osmoticdespair at 9:13 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 3:37 pm on July 4, 2009  I'd hate to see what comes from studying 100 religious texts that no one knows the true meaning of then. If God is the omnipotent father that we all believe he is, I think he is perfectly capable of giving individual guidance to each and every one of his children should they ask. But is that individual guidance "avoid organised religion"? Perhaps God founded the Church for a reason. Of course He can do anything anyway He pleases, but that doesn't mean the particular way it pleased Him to do it is the way any individual thinks. Especially since the ideology of individualism is very new and for most of history man has interacted with God not only alone but in community. I've gotten myself into an argument that I shouldn't have. I'm not trying to downplay the concept of organized religion. What I am against is the use of familial pressure or something similar to 'force' someone into the fold. That is quite simply destructive to youth today. And the message I'm trying to convey is that God and religion are not the same thing and shouldn't be treated as such. When one becomes disgusted with their church and leaves it, they often leave God too. It doesn't need to be that way. I shouldn't have attacked other Catholic practices. Those are my own personal opinions and I do not treat them as fact. -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 12:50 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from Moridin at 7:52 am on July 4, 2009 Most of the world religious make equally retarded and equally contradictory statements, so that seems highly unlikely. No religion is 100% inspired by God, and indoctrinated individuals aren't always able to separate instructions from God and instructions from their preacher. -- Posted by SpM at 12:50 pm on July 4, 2009 What is the nature of your relationship with God now that you have shunned theology and religious texts? -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 12:55 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 12:50 pm on July 4, 2009 What is the nature of your relationship with God now that you have shunned theology and religious texts? I have shunned the Catholic church. I have not shunned Christianity. I've read much of the bible, but I take it all with a grain of salt and rely more on the innate connection to God that every human has and the sense of right and wrong that He bestowed upon me. -- Posted by SpM at 1:00 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 8:55 pm on July 4, 2009 I have shunned the Catholic church. I have not shunned Christianity. I've read much of the bible, but I take it all with a grain of salt and rely more on the innate connection to God that every human has and the sense of right and wrong that He bestowed upon me. How do you experience this "innate connection"? What makes you think it is of divine origin? How does it relate to the Bible? -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 1:05 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 1:00 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from InsaneBlue at 8:55 pm on July 4, 2009 I have shunned the Catholic church. I have not shunned Christianity. I've read much of the bible, but I take it all with a grain of salt and rely more on the innate connection to God that every human has and the sense of right and wrong that He bestowed upon me. How do you experience this "innate connection"? What makes you think it is of divine origin? How does it relate to the Bible? Now we approach the unexplainable. I have faith that it is of divine origin. And if it's not, if it's just one of those tricks that the mind likes to play on itself, it has me do things that God would be proud of by anyone's definition of him, so either way it can be considered divine, in inspiration if not in origin. I'm not sure what you mean by asking me to relate it to the Bible. In the Bible, God speaks with people quite frequently. -- Posted by SpM at 1:07 pm on July 4, 2009 You actually hear His voice in your head? -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 1:11 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 1:07 pm on July 4, 2009 You actually hear His voice in your head? No. Don't worry, I understand that would be a tad worrisome. It's more of a conscience thing, and it points in the same general direction as the teachings of Jesus. Like I said, we all have our human sense of right and wrong. Some people ignore it for money, power, etc. I choose not to (of course we're all sinners so I do slip up [and repent]) and I use that as my direction. -- Posted by SpM at 1:27 pm on July 4, 2009 Speaking as a life-long atheist, I can assure you that the desire to be nice to people is the result of an agreeable temperament and a good upbringing. I'm sure you're aware of this already, unless you were a marauding serial killer up until you found God a year ago. -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 1:38 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 1:27 pm on July 4, 2009 Speaking as a life-long atheist, I can assure you that the desire to be nice to people is the result of an agreeable temperament and a good upbringing. I'm sure you're aware of this already, unless you were a marauding serial killer up until you found God a year ago. I really do hate getting into philosophical debates, since no one can prove anyone right or wrong. I will throw out my opinion though, not trying to argue yours, just stating mine. I think people are born good, I think they're born with the desire to help people and do as, I believe, God would want them to. But sometimes that gets clouded. And that actually leads into my biggest problem with the concept of God but that's for another discussion. -- Posted by SpM at 2:01 pm on July 4, 2009 You take a feature of the human psyche that is near universal (psychopaths seem to be denied this divine privilege from birth for some reason) and proclaim that it is the gift of your culture's god? Does it not strike you as rather arrogant to proclaim that billions upon billions of humans, past and present, were utterly wrong about the source of their own morality? -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 2:10 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 2:01 pm on July 4, 2009 You take a feature of the human psyche that is near universal (psychopaths seem to be denied this divine privilege from birth for some reason) and proclaim that it is the gift of your culture's god? Does it not strike you as rather arrogant to proclaim that billions upon billions of humans, past and present, were utterly wrong about the source of their own morality? That's one of the things I try hard to avoid. I believe that there is a god. I believe that Christianity best captures the nature of this god, but I do not insist upon that. If there's one thing I don't do it's forcing my beliefs on people. -- Posted by SpM at 2:16 pm on July 4, 2009 If you're right, and the issue is an important one, I'd have thought you'd feel morally obligated to persuade people to come around to your point of view. -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 2:22 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 2:16 pm on July 4, 2009 If you're right, and the issue is an important one, I'd have thought you'd feel morally obligated to persuade people to come around to your point of view. If I knew as a solid fact that I am right, than that would be true. But it's not fact. I make liberal use of "I believe" and "I think" for a reason. I never stated my opinion on conscience as fact. I even included a disclaimer. -- Posted by SpM at 2:29 pm on July 4, 2009 You are certain enough in your position to live your life in accordance with it. -- Posted by InsaneBlue at 2:33 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from SpM at 2:29 pm on July 4, 2009 You are certain enough in your position to live your life in accordance with it. It has nothing to do with living my life. It's just an abstract, possible explanation for the nature of our conscience. It doesn't change how I use mine. Pages: 1 2  Next