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-- Posted by LogicandReason at 9:44 am on July 8, 2009
Theist define behaviors that would separate a person from God as 'Sin.' Can anyone list all these 'sins?' Is morality defined by not committing any of these 'sins?' Can anyone, that is not Christian, be moral? Is 'non-belief' a sin?
-- Posted by IceTeaEdwin at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
Morals, ethics, right, wrong...it's all lies.
-- Posted by lolums at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
Can anyone who is not Christian be moral? What kind of bullshit question is that? You don't need to believe in some fantasy of God to be a good person, and lead a good, moral life. Non-belief is not a sin, it's called being open minded, surely that should be rewarded. This topic is silly.
-- Posted by Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
-- Posted by ScarletsWalk at 9:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
 I think morality is just an opinion 
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
-- Posted by steath at 9:56 am on July 8, 2009
A sin is anything that separates us from God. There is only one way to eternal life and that is in the belif and relationship with the ultimate lover, God.
-- Posted by Forever Angel at 10:17 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
-- Posted by Prince o palities at 12:29 pm on July 8, 2009
I feel as though I am stepping into a quagmire, but...
Theist define behaviors that would separate a person from God as 'Sin.' Can anyone list all these 'sins?'
I can't list every sin. I do, however, have access to the tools for determining with some degree of certainty whether or not something is a sin (as do we all).
Is morality defined by not committing any of these 'sins?'
Not anymore than the absence of debt makes one rich. A better way to understand it would be to say that immorality is defined as committing sins.
Can anyone, that is not Christian, be moral?
In the ultimate sense, no one can be moral, Christian or otherwise. On a more practical level, anyone can be moral, Christian or otherwise.
Is 'non-belief' a sin?
That is a good question, an authoritative answer for which I don't presume to have. I tend to understand unbelief not as a sin but as the state of being in which one has no hope of the remission of sin. Unbelief then is ultimately more hazardous than sin itself.
-- Posted by Natsy at 3:09 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.
Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.
-- Posted by Forever Angel at 3:14 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:09 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.
Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.
How about murder?
-- Posted by Natsy at 3:33 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:14 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:09 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.
Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.
How about murder?
murder=homicide
-- Posted by Forever Angel at 3:54 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:33 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:14 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:09 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.
Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.
How about murder?
murder=homicide
Yes... ? How many "moral" people would disagree that murder is wrong?
-- Posted by Dexter Ward at 7:14 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 6:33 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:14 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:09 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.
Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.
How about murder?
murder=homicide
Lets say someone breaks into my house and puts a gun to my wife's head and says kill me or she dies and I know he's a serial killer and will do it. If I shoot him is that as bad of as if I go out and kill a random person for no reason other then I feel like it?
-- Posted by osmoticdespair at 7:43 pm on July 8, 2009
Read Me [warning: long]
-- Posted by Emilybird at 7:56 pm on July 8, 2009
in the bible is the 10 commandments. if you disobey any of those commandments it is considered a sin. morality is just your personal opinion. whatever values you have in life. those are your morals. what you live up to. and if you have "non beliefs" then obviously sins do not apply because you dont belive in such a thing.
-- Posted by theyareAs at 8:36 pm on July 8, 2009
Sin is god pointing his angry finger at you. Morals are your own personal sense of right and wrong and your justification of your choices
-- Posted by Natsy at 11:07 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:54 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:33 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:14 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 5:09 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Forever Angel at 6:17 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 11:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
That would be because not everyone has an uncorrupted moral compass.
no, it's just that there are always exceptions to rules and "morals" and no one agrees on which exceptions are acceptable; killing for example. Some believe it's always wrong, others say if a person did something terrible (e.g. rape, homicide, etc) it's ok to kill them under those circumstances.
Your morals are different from ine and probably every single person out there.
How about murder?
murder=homicide
Yes... ? How many "moral" people would disagree that murder is wrong?
I don't know the figures, do I?
I'm just saying there are always exceptions. War is murder. Yet 'holy moral' people support religious wars and so on.
-- Posted by Stormblazer at 1:21 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 10:48 am on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
Agreement doesn't make something correct or incorrect. Besides, some things ARE widely agreed upon - enough to make laws out of them. Such as killing an innocent person.
-- Posted by Stormblazer at 1:23 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 12:07 am on July 9, 2009
I'm just saying there are always exceptions. War is murder. Yet 'holy moral' people support religious wars and so on.
Someone calling themselves moral does not make them so.
-- Posted by LogicandReason at 4:29 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from lolums at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
Can anyone who is not Christian be moral? What kind of bullshit question is that? You don't need to believe in some fantasy of God to be a good person, and lead a good, moral life. Non-belief is not a sin, it's called being open minded, surely that should be rewarded. This topic is silly.
I'm sure readers of Plato's Euthyphro would agree with you. It's a wonder that the story of Socrates pondering this question is still read, 2300 years later. Silly really.
-- Posted by LogicandReason at 4:37 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Prince o palities at 12:29 pm on July 8, 2009
I feel as though I am stepping into a quagmire, but...
Theist define behaviors that would separate a person from God as 'Sin.' Can anyone list all these 'sins?'
I can't list every sin. I do, however, have access to the tools for determining with some degree of certainty whether or not something is a sin (as do we all).
Is morality defined by not committing any of these 'sins?'
Not anymore than the absence of debt makes one rich. A better way to understand it would be to say that immorality is defined as committing sins.
Can anyone, that is not Christian, be moral?
In the ultimate sense, no one can be moral, Christian or otherwise. On a more practical level, anyone can be moral, Christian or otherwise.
Is 'non-belief' a sin?
That is a good question, an authoritative answer for which I don't presume to have. I tend to understand unbelief not as a sin but as the state of being in which one has no hope of the remission of sin. Unbelief then is ultimately more hazardous than sin itself.
This is the most intelligent response I've read on these very Forums. Morality, as I define it, describes our behaviors in interaction with other sentient beings - whether we benefit or hurt them. We cannot be immoral towards a rock (by our detection). Several of the responses above probably deserve their own thread. I especially enjoyed this quote from the Prince "Not anymore than the absence of debt makes one rich." The root of my question comes from Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3. To me that is the quagmire. In verses 15 and 16 he seems to say that "belief' was all that was necessary for salvation. I wonder about all the moral non-Christian people on this earth. Not good enough?
-- Posted by LogicandReason at 4:38 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Stormblazer at 1:23 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 12:07 am on July 9, 2009
I'm just saying there are always exceptions. War is murder. Yet 'holy moral' people support religious wars and so on.
Someone calling themselves moral does not make them so.
Sartre would agree with the above statement. He says that we are but a resume of our deeds, not what we say about ourselves.
-- Posted by Aimforthehead at 7:05 am on July 9, 2009
Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.
In a way.
For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.
Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.
-- Posted by Prince o palities at 7:49 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from LogicandReason at 6:37 am on July 9, 2009
The root of my question comes from Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3. To me that is the quagmire. In verses 15 and 16 he seems to say that "belief' was all that was necessary for salvation. I wonder about all the moral non-Christian people on this earth. Not good enough?
The problem only comes if you misunderstand the relationship between morality and salvation. Morality is not causal for salvation. No one is saved because they are moral. If unbelief is the state of being in which one has no hope for the remission of sin, faith is the state of possessing that hope.
-- Posted by Prince o palities at 7:51 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009
Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.
In a way.
For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.
Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.
This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?
-- Posted by Aimforthehead at 7:56 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Prince o palities at 7:51 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009
Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.
In a way.
For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.
Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.
This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?
I wouldn't say there are any opposites, just that they are different choices in life.
Now, from a scientific standpoint. I could say there are opposites in some things. For example, love and fear.
Which is usually what I use to base my morals on. If fear, you are focusing internally. Detached from society creating more divisions (and everyone knows, an organism at war with itself, is doomed).
Buy more guns get more private property encourage wars, things like that. Then love, which I'm sure you need no description. Oh gee. I forgot to explain why this is scientifically based.
Well, you see a species, or body, evolves extremely slow when it is focused on protection. You cannot grow or evolve properly when you are focused internally. Fear is really a paralysis. I'm losing all of my links >_> I'll try and find it.
-- Posted by Moridin at 9:08 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from ScarletsWalk at 7:48 pm on July 8, 2009
Quote: from Natsy at 9:46 am on July 8, 2009
I think morality is just an opinion
I agree. There hasn't ever been one single moral everyone's agreed on.
I love the inherent contradiction in your claim here. You hold that morality is based on opinion and majority, yet claim no moral statement has ever achieved majority, as if majority was at all relevant to the truth or falsehood of a moral proposition. 
-- Posted by Moridin at 9:11 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Prince o palities at 5:49 pm on July 9, 2009
Quote: from LogicandReason at 6:37 am on July 9, 2009
The root of my question comes from Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3. To me that is the quagmire. In verses 15 and 16 he seems to say that "belief' was all that was necessary for salvation. I wonder about all the moral non-Christian people on this earth. Not good enough?
The problem only comes if you misunderstand the relationship between morality and salvation. Morality is not causal for salvation. No one is saved because they are moral. If unbelief is the state of being in which one has no hope for the remission of sin, faith is the state of possessing that hope.
Who are you to decide what the criteria for salvation is? I am glad that you have understood the moral disconnect your theology has regarding ultimate salvation or normative behavior. I take it that you agree that Hitler, as a faithful Christian, has gone to heaven, whereas the around six million unfaithful Jews that where tortured and executed have ended up in hell? You are signaling that in the end, behavior does not matter, it is all good and dandy as long as you subscribe to this particular list of superstitious mythology.
-- Posted by Moridin at 9:12 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Aimforthehead at 5:56 pm on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Prince o palities at 7:51 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Aimforthehead at 9:05 am on July 9, 2009
Well, in my opinion, I consider sin to be 'internal' and moral to be 'external'.
In a way.
For example things like materialism, ego, etc. would be under sin.
Then loving another person or positive feelings outward towards other people, would be moral.
This is entirely random, but what is the opposite of sin?
I wouldn't say there are any opposites, just that they are different choices in life.
Now, from a scientific standpoint. I could say there are opposites in some things. For example, love and fear.
Which is usually what I use to base my morals on. If fear, you are focusing internally. Detached from society creating more divisions (and everyone knows, an organism at war with itself, is doomed).
Buy more guns get more private property encourage wars, things like that. Then love, which I'm sure you need no description. Oh gee. I forgot to explain why this is scientifically based.
Well, you see a species, or body, evolves extremely slow when it is focused on protection. You cannot grow or evolve properly when you are focused internally. Fear is really a paralysis. I'm losing all of my links >_> I'll try and find it.
Populations evolve, not individuals.
-- Posted by Prince o palities at 9:19 am on July 9, 2009
Quote: from Moridin at 11:11 am on July 9, 2009
Who are you to decide what the criteria for salvation is?
I didn't decide.
I am glad that you have understood the moral disconnect your theology has regarding ultimate salvation or normative behavior. I take it that you agree that Hitler, as a faithful Christian, has gone to heaven, whereas the around six million unfaithful Jews that where tortured and executed have ended up in hell? You are signaling that in the end, behavior does not matter, it is all good and dandy as long as you subscribe to this particular list of superstitious mythology.
That only works if faith is the simple act of belief. It isn't. The Bible certainly doesn't present it that way.
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