-- Posted by dragonking at 8:00 am on July 10, 2009 Here is a quote from President George Washington's Farewell Address on what one of our Founding Father's has to say about politics in America. This needs to be the way things are again, as it was at America's Founding! "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government." http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp You can and should read the rest of his address on the website. What are your thoughts on what one of America's Founding Fathers had to say on politics? -- Posted by Mods1Blow2Me3Daily at 8:02 am on July 10, 2009 i could care less than bush cared about katrina -- Posted by Millerr at 8:03 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from Mods1Blow2Me3Daily at 8:02 am on July 10, 2009 i could care less than bush cared about katrina Those ppl had 3 full days to leave they chose not to -- Posted by medjai at 8:03 am on July 10, 2009 This was the mindset that made the Salem Witch Hunts and the like possible. Involving religion in the court has always been a horribly inhumane and injust thing because justice should be impartial and not basing its decisions on the religious fidelity of those on trial. My thoughts are that the Founding Fathers were people who deserve our respect, but in no way were any more enlightened than any other man of similar education to them. -- Posted by dragonking at 8:06 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from medjai at 11:03 am on July 10, 2009 This was the mindset that made the Salem Witch Hunts and the like possible. Involving religion in the court has always been a horribly inhumane and injust thing because justice should be impartial and not basing its decisions on the religious fidelity of those on trial. My thoughts are that the Founding Fathers were people who deserve our respect, but in no way were any more enlightened than any other man of similar education to them. Those people involved with the Salem Witch Trials were going against God and other if they were lying which isn't the fault of Christianity but of those people who did wrong.  Don't blame Christianity for what people have done in God's name.  Religious laws are where secular laws come from (mostly)..  do not murder, do not steal, etc. -- Posted by RayOrama at 8:07 am on July 10, 2009 I disagree with Washington. Religion did not invent morality but borrowed it from what humans naturally feel. Most people can tell what's right and wrong without believing in any religion. You know you don't like to be lied to so you know lying is wrong. You know you wouldn't want to be killed so you know killing is wrong. You don't want people stealing from you so you know stealing is wrong. It's common sense. Little kids who are completely ignorant about religion know this and that's why they feel guilty when they do certain things. That's even before they are infested with the religious virus. Morality is a human trait not divine. -- Posted by dragonking at 8:07 am on July 10, 2009 Keeping religion out of court is much worse.  If a person has no belief in God they may lie under oath and not care because he doesn't consider himself accountable but he truly is and will pay. -- Posted by dragonking at 8:09 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 11:07 am on July 10, 2009 I disagree with Washington. Religion did not invent morality but borrowed it from what humans naturally feel. Most people can tell what's right and wrong without believing in any religion. You know you don't like to be lied to so you know lying is wrong. You know you wouldn't want to be killed so you know killing is wrong. You don't want people stealing from you so you know stealing is wrong. It's common sense. Little kids who are completely ignorant about religion know this and that's why they feel guilty when they do certain things. That's even before they are infested with the religious virus. Morality is a human trait not divine. God has put the conscience in people so even kids know right from wrong.  God put that knowledge in people and it relates to being made in God's image so we know right from wrong. -- Posted by Elm at 8:11 am on July 10, 2009 Morality must exist within a popular form of government otherwise tyranny of the majority will result along with the loafers voting themselves into the pockets of the able. Morality in this case does not need to be religion but a mental rigor necessary to support the rights of others when infringing on them would lead to personal reward. -- Posted by RayOrama at 8:11 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from dragonking at 11:07 am on July 10, 2009 Keeping religion out of court is much worse. If a person has no belief in God they may lie under oath and not care because he doesn't consider himself accountable but he truly is and will pay. People lie under oath every day. That's why we have secular laws on perjury. Those who don't lie don't do so because they believe telling the truth is the right thing to do and would be truthful even if they didn't have to swear on a Bible. -- Posted by RayOrama at 8:14 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from dragonking at 11:09 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 11:07 am on July 10, 2009 I disagree with Washington. Religion did not invent morality but borrowed it from what humans naturally feel. Most people can tell what's right and wrong without believing in any religion. You know you don't like to be lied to so you know lying is wrong. You know you wouldn't want to be killed so you know killing is wrong. You don't want people stealing from you so you know stealing is wrong. It's common sense. Little kids who are completely ignorant about religion know this and that's why they feel guilty when they do certain things. That's even before they are infested with the religious virus. Morality is a human trait not divine. God has put the conscience in people so even kids know right from wrong. God put that knowledge in people and it relates to being made in God's image so we know right from wrong. I don't believe that's true. You do though. How can you prove it? -- Posted by medjai at 8:14 am on July 10, 2009 It's stupid to believe that laws such as "do not kill" came from religion. You honestly believe murder would be legal were it not for Christianity? These are primal laws that have existed long before religion was ever even around at all. Everything is built off of them. Religion has been used as a catalyst to justify law as immutable, but beyond that task it is not responsible for the law we have itself. Common sense and the need for an advanced functioning society is. You have no idea what was going on in the salem witch trials, you have no idea who was lying or who really believed what they were saying. You had people murdering people because they were thought to be supernatural demons (witches). It's an example of the consequences of the propagation of ignorance. -- Posted by dragonking at 8:16 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 11:11 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from dragonking at 11:07 am on July 10, 2009 Keeping religion out of court is much worse.  If a person has no belief in God they may lie under oath and not care because he doesn't consider himself accountable but he truly is and will pay. People lie under oath every day. That's why we have secular laws on perjury. Those who don't lie don't do so because they believe telling the truth is the right thing to do and would be truthful even if they didn't have to swear on a Bible. Yes, there are secular laws on perjury, as well as religious laws against perjury.  People may lie so they may not get punished, fear of those in a court case getting them for speaking truthfully against them, etc.   -- Posted by medjai at 8:16 am on July 10, 2009 "Right and wrong" comes from primitive instincts that all pack animals on earth share. Wolf's in a pack cooperate because it increases each wolf's individual survival probability if he acts with the group. It's not that complicated to see how this mentality started with nomads and evolved into people settling and establishing society. -- Posted by RayOrama at 8:18 am on July 10, 2009 Quote: from medjai at 11:14 am on July 10, 2009 It's stupid to believe that laws such as "do not kill" came from religion. You honestly believe murder would be legal were it not for Christianity?   These are primal laws that have existed long before religion was ever even around at all. Everything is built off of them. Religion has been used as a catalyst to justify law as immutable, but beyond that task it is not responsible for the law we have itself. Common sense and the need for an advanced functioning society is.   You have no idea what was going on in the salem witch trials, you have no idea who was lying or who really believed what they were saying. You had people murdering people because they were thought to be supernatural demons (witches). It's an example of the consequences of the propagation of ignorance. Exactly. Even worse, many used accusations of witchcraft to avenge personal gripes or to take land and propertyaway from others. But if anyone believes that government should be ruled by religious principles they should look towards Iran. -- Posted by Charolastra at 8:30 am on July 10, 2009 Morality has only an evolutionary attribute to it: in any society where resources are limited, cooperating with your own species has a clear benefit that increases your chances at survival. You'd be right to argue that scripture was derived from our evolutionary instinct but it's incorrect to claim the other way around. I'm a Catholic. Does this mean I would never lie in court? I'd say that's irrelevant because the court system doesn't operate like that. We do know that people are capable of selling a lie. Taking the oath is just a measure done to possibly deter from it.