-- Posted by Shuichi at 2:07 am on June 4, 2006 Welcome to Religion and Philosophy! In this thread you will find information about the topics that you might encounter here in the R&P as well as common arguments you'll see and a term list of words that are used here that you may not know.  To begin with... Topics you are likely to find: - by britishguy and Prince o palities Religion Beliefs about God News concerning religion Support for and from those who share your religious beliefs Discussion about, cricitism of, and support for different kinds of religion The content and interpretation of scripture Philosophy The nature of reality Means of knowing and experiencing the world The reasons for religious belief Criticism and discussion about how people think Criticism and discussion concerning the attributes of God(s) Ethics How people should live their lives Ways of determining what is right and wrong Critisim of and support for ethical systems Discussion of ethicists General Knowledgeable members who will try and help with philosophical and religious questions you might have Support from members for your faith A broad range of responses from many perspectives regarding questions about life the universe and everything Please make sure to see the term list for some specialized terminology you might come across in this forum. Some common arguments: - by The Other Horseman. Pascal's Wager Convert or Be Damned All Religions Except Mine Are of the Devil Islam is a Religion of War Atheism is an Evil Religion Atheists Have No Morals/Belief System The Bible Says... We Are All Sinners, Only Jesus Can Redeem You God Loves You Everything in My Life Became Better When I Converted. Convert! God. Hates. Fags. Homosexuality is a Choice/Sin How Can the Universe Always Have Existed? I Did NOT Evolve From a MONKEY! So You Think You Came From Goo!? How Could We Have So Much Diversity Unless God Created Everything? Worldly Logic vs. Heavenly Logic Christianity is evil. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition! Fetuses are not humans. Christians are assholes. My Life Blows, God Must Hate Me If God Exists, Why Is There Death/Suffering Please visit the forum guidelines thread to learn about the rules of the forum. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:09 am on June 4, 2006 Pascal's Wager The Argument: If the Christian God doesn't exist, whether or not you believe you'll rot in the ground when you die. If the Christian God does exist, the believers will get eternal bliss and the nonbelievers get damnation. Wouldn't it be better to believe than to take that chance? The Counterargument: There are two problems. 1) The argument assumes that there are only two possibilities: either (A) the Christian God exists or (B) the universe is a cold and godless place and our lives are meaningless.  This is a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities. What if Islam is correct? What if the Buddha was correct? What if Hinduism is correct? The diversity of beleifs in the world makes such a "either/or" scenario impossible. What's more, it precludes yet another option that all men who have ever lived have been wrong and the tru is yet unknown. 2) The argument assumes that belief as a form of gambling with God is sufficient for salvation. Serious consideration of Christian doctrine will suggest to you that it is not. Only genuine faith results in salvation. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:10 am on June 4, 2006 Convert or Be Damned This argument basically involves extolling the horrors of hell in an effort to scare someone in Christianity. It isn't going to work, folks. It just isn't. The kind of person who is willing to take your word on the exact nature of the afterlife without so much as a whiff of unholy brimstone is the kind of person who gets easily distraced by tin foil. By the time you get them to commit to conversion, they'll be three steps down the path towards Wicca. Not only that, but for the people who this argument doesn't work on (which comprise the vast majority of people) all that is being accomplished is the breeding of resentment towards your religion. Now, while I'm sure you think it is good just to tell people about Jesus, I'm fairly sure you aren't doing his will by pissing everyone off and thus driving them further into the steely claws of Satan. Conclusion: Worse than ineffective, argument 2 is actually counterproductive and people come away from it more angry at Christianity that they were prior to the incident. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:11 am on June 4, 2006 All Religions Except Mine Are of the Devil This may or may not include other denominations of Christianity, depending on the speaker. Therefore, people who are of a religion which is not Christianity are in the thrall of Satan. Here's the interesting thing about this assertion. The one who gives this argument is always Christian, and Judaism is not Christianity. Thus, assuming the validity of this argument, Judaism is of the Devil. Jesus, and all of the original Christians, were Jews. Jesus was born a Jew, Jesus engaged in Jewish customs, and therefore the person asserting the above argument as fact is calling Jesus tainted by the hand of the devil, not to mention the apostles as well. I doubt this is intentional, as such a person likely sees Judaism as Christianity: The Prequel, so this is just to point out that you are being an idiot even by your own beliefs when you say this. Here's two things to keep in mind. A. If Satan is farsighted enough to muck up Christianity by founding false religions before Christianity even exists, why the hell can't he avoid losing the Apocalypse? A ties into B. B. If you think that all other religions were formulated by Satan, who is to say that Christianity is not the grandest ruse of them all? After all, if I were Satan the best thing in my book would be to have a false religion a billion-strong claiming to adhere to the ways of my enemy and making a total mess of it because their fundamental beliefs were satanic in origin and fundamentally flawed. Conclusion: Don't even try it. It is just opening a whole new can of worms. Evil, goat-footed, horned worms. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:14 am on June 4, 2006 Islam is a Religion of War This has become popular since the 9/11 attacks on the United States. The logic goes that since some Muslims did bad things, all Muslims must be bad. This isn't entirely based on those attacks, of course. Those nasty middle eastern Muslims are attacking those poor innocent Jews and the whole place is a clusterfuck of violence and extremism. Guess what Christians? There but for the grace of God go ye. Okay, maybe that's a bad phrase to use because you'll take it literally. The kind of Christian who says these things is no different from the extremist wacko Muslim in that they both take bias and misinformation and mix it in a pot called religious nutjobbery to produce baseless hatred. Congratulations. Israel isn't the innocent lamb you make it out to be, Muslims are people just like you, and turn the other motherfucking cheek for once. Conclusion: Total and complete BS. If someone tries citing that false Koran passage as a means of refuting this, I will repeat that it is a false passage (which, by the way, I can prove because there's a Koran on one of my bookshelves) and then I will proceed to come to your house and paint your dog a funny color. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:14 am on June 4, 2006 Atheism is an Evil Religion Atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of belief in any gods or spiritual whatsahooses (plural of whatsahoosis). Conclusion: You don't know what you're talking about if you say this, all subsequent and prior arguments you made can be dismissed. By the way, remember: I before E except after C and in the word 'atheist'. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:15 am on June 4, 2006 Atheists Have No Morals/Belief System This is also a fairly ridiculous thing to say. This is often said because the person writing the post seems to think that the only system of belief and morality is their own, and nobody else is capable of having one. This is nonsense, of course. Everyone has some sense of right and wrong except complete sociopaths. Since most non-Christians don't skewer puppies for the sheer unadulterated hell of it, I'm going to assume they aren't all sociopaths. That's right, even the atheists. As for a belief system... in addition to God, I believe in gravity, chicken and dumplings being delicious, photosynthesis requires carbon dioxide, and a whole host of other things. People can have a sense of right and wrong without a God. "Do unto others" is not exclusive to Christians. Anyone with some degree of empathy can say, "I don't like this done to me, so I won't do it to you." Conclusion: Total bullshit. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:16 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:16 am on June 4, 2006 The Bible Says... Stop there. Don't go past the third word there. Atheists and people of religions with no tied to Judaism are not going to accept any part of the bible as fact. Deal with it. Want to know why? Why should they accept the Bible as true? Because it is true, right? How do they know it is true? Because you say so? Because it is? Because it says in the bible that the bible is true? They are all batshit insane reasons. I could pick up the Koran and do the same thing to you. Would you believe it? If you would, keep preaching until I convert you to Islam. If you wouldn't, shaddup. Conclusion: Shaddup. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:17 am on June 4, 2006 We Are All Sinners, Only Jesus Can Redeem You This sounds nice on paper, doesn't it? Well, except for the part where we all deserve eternal damnation because some ass ate an apple six thousand years ago. The only time this is a good thing to say is following the question "I am a sinner, who can redeem me?" If you just walk up to people and say that, they're going to give you a blank look and carry on. If you say it online, you'll likely be torn apart. See #7. You have no proof. You're doing the religious equivalent of poking someone in the arm and saying, "C'mooooon. Beliiiiieve. C'moooooon." Generally, it doesn't work. Conclusion: As effective as a sponge at a gunfight. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:44 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:18 am on June 4, 2006 God Loves You Aww. The touchy feely side of conversion attempts. Far more useful than the full "God loves you. So love back or He'll make you pay!" That's not really giving the image of an unconditionally loving father. For an idea of what you are making God look like, watch the stalker movie Swimfan. Which I have never seen, but I am assuming to be relevant. Conclusion: I'm not saying don't use this, because as Christian arguments go this (by itself) is a fairly nonoffensive one. I just suggest that you be ready to explain why an all-loving God would have need for a place of eternal torture, because that is going to come up pretty damn quick. Also, the "Jesus loves you, but everyone else thinks you're an asshole" thing is really funny. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:43 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:18 am on June 4, 2006 Everything in My Life Became Better When I Converted. Convert! Your life doing a 180 when you converted is not proof of a miracle. It is proof of you being capable of turning your own life around when you have a system of morals to fanatically adhere to. The world seems brighter because there is now apparently a meaning to it all, and the shadows seem less shadowy. Bad things that happen, why still bad of course, are not as horrible as they once were because there is a God, there is a plan, and the spaceship is coming! (Strike that very last part. I stole those final thirteen words from the comedy act of Maria Bamford when she talked about cults. I didn't have the heart to change it.) Conclusion: Unless everyone you know wins the lottery the day after you convert, I'm having a hard time seeing something miraculous going on. "I stopped drinking" is not the kind of thing people usually envision when somebody says miracle. Mostly because atheists are capable of that as well. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:19 am on June 4, 2006 God. Hates. Fags. Oh, goody. Does He now? This ties into numbers nine and twelve, by the way. First of all, how can an all-loving God hate? Doesn't the capacity for hate kind of defeat the purpose of saying "all loving"? Shouldn't you say somewhat loving, or kinda liking? Secondly, does God hate brunettes? Spaniards? Does he hate other people who are born in a certain way and cannot change what they fundamentally are? I hate to be the neuroscience guy that comes to tell you this but homosexuality... well, just read number twelve would you? Conclusion: Nonsensical gibberish. Read twelve. Do it now, or I'll be quite cross. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:19 am on June 4, 2006 Homosexuality is a Choice/Sin No, it isn't. Homosexuality is a matter of brain chemistry that is predetermined by genetics. Homosexuality is not a sin, because homosexuality is a state of being, not an action. Sin requires that you do something. For example, being a gay person is not any more inherently sinful than being a person. However, by your own religion, rubbing penises together like firestarters is the no-no. Actually, if someone wants to post that interpretation of the original law that only labels it as sinful if you are taking and not giving (because you are taking a woman's role) then that would be ubersweet. Uber. Homosexuality occurs in... what was it, now... 11 animal species at least? Since last I checked humans have free will and swans don't, that means homosexuality is not a choice, and since it happens in nature it is natural. Oh, it can be natural and bad, but don't call it unnatural either. Conclusion: Sorry, no dice. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:20 am on June 4, 2006 How Can the Universe Always Have Existed? How can God? Honestly, at least we can prove the universe exists. If you honestly want an answer from this question more thorough than what you'll get on this board, buy a damn book. Have tea with Hawkings or something. Lay on Einstein's grave and hope something seeps in via osmosis. However, this might be seen as avoiding the question. Your argument is that God, by His nature, does not need and does not have a beginning. Great. That's what people are saying about the Universe. Conclusion: Hated to burst your bubble, but eh... (Edited by Shuichi at 2:43 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:21 am on June 4, 2006 I Did NOT Evolve From a MONKEY! I agree totally. Too bad nobody believes that human beings evolved from monkeys. It is believed that humans and APES (not monkeys, those are two distinct classifications) share a common ancestor. It looks something like this:                            ____ Humans Common Ancestor--|                            ____ Apes (If that isn't aligned properly... like, fix it or something.) See how humans didn't come from apes? Neat, huh? Granted, that is extremely oversimplified, but I'm writing this to a target audience that is extremely oversimple. Conclusion: That is like saying we evolved from a sloth. Shut up. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:21 am on June 4, 2006 So You Think You Came From Goo!? You think we came from clay. At least OUR stuff is organic. Oh, and no. It wasn't goo. Conclusion: Your momma, bitch. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:43 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:22 am on June 4, 2006 How Could We Have So Much Diversity Unless God Created Everything? A diversity of life springs from a diversity of environments and situations in which it must survive. A diversity of environments is due to the a dizzying array of factors from the distance of the sun and the pull of the moon to the temperature of the earth's core and its rotation speed. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:43 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:22 am on June 4, 2006 Worldly Logic vs. Heavenly Logic This is one we'll see every so often. This allows the Christian in question to utterly ignore reason because "worldly logic < heavenly logic". Here's a newsflash. There is no heavenly and worldly logic. There's just logic. Or, alternatively, since God created our brains and the laws that govern the universe, one could argue that all logic is heavenly logic. But I won't. Logic is logic is logic. There's is no difference in how worldly and heavenly logic work. People with "worldly" logic and people with "heavenly" logic just accept different truths and operate in the same manner. The problem is that people using "worldly" logic can show you where their truths came from and provide proof and validation for them. Heavenly logic has a damn hard time with that. Since it is all the same logic, and you can't just use something without proof and expect the result to be logical... well, sucks, don't it? Conclusion: There's only one kind of logic, you massive fucktard. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:38 am on June 4, 2006 Christianity is evil. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisition! This is interesting because the same people who will rant about original sin being unfair because you can't blame someone for something their forebears did will bring this up. Well, what about it, hypocrisy lad? You up for answering the challenge? Regardless, I don't see this as a matter of Christianity being bad. If one gets to the heart of Christianity, it is about love and forgiveness. But, as Gandhi said, Christians are so unlike Christ. It is a matter of human nature, to be honest with you. Things like the Crusades and the Inquisiton would happen with or without religion. Their natures would be different, but the destruction would be just as nasty. People will quarrel, people will fight, people will die. Removing reasons for war is just an excuse to find new reasons a lot of times. The mere fact that an atheist would offer these arguments is proof that Christianity and religion is not to blame. Stupidity exists independent of any conception of a spiritual reality. Conclusion: Shut the hell up you idiot. My poor half-dead ferret could probably run fucking circles around you when it comes to a history debate. Hell, the dead one could probably give you a run for your money. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:39 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:40 am on June 4, 2006 Fetuses are not humans. Idiots often use this to justify abortion. Now, I am not going to turn this into an abortion debate (and, by the way, that's the only restriction I place on this thread. Don't turn it into an abortion debate) The species of an organism is determined by its DNA. A fetus has human DNA. Case closed, a fetus is a human being. You can say it isn't a person and try to justify that, but don't try this argument, Okay? Conclusion: This demonstrates such a glaring lack of scientific knowledge I have to wonder how many times you repeated the first grade and how long it took you to get to your current lofty position in the third grade. (Edited by Shuichi at 2:40 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:41 am on June 4, 2006 Christians are assholes. Bigots are douchebags. We'll play this game if you want. Calling all Christians assholes because some people were bugging you outside the mall or some Jehova's Witnesses came to your door with free bibles is akin to calling all people of African descent dirty criminals because I drove by Temple University in Philly and saw the surrounding neighborhood. Using this argument is making a vast generalization and makes you no better than a racist. Congratulations, you just placed yourself on a pedastal with a number of prominent KKK leaders and even ol' Hitler. Except you're probably not a genius when it comes to public speaking and oods are good you couldn't revitalize the economy of a wartorn nation to save your life. Wow, look at that. You're worse than Hitler. Conclusion: For shame, you sub-Hitler monster! -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:41 am on June 4, 2006 My Life Blows, God Must Hate Me First off, I say this to anyone who thinks this: You're a moron. With that out of the way, let's continue, shall we? I don't care how bad your life is. Not in the sense that I'm about to make a comparison saying someone else is worse off, in the sense that I honestly do not care. Okay, that's not true. I'll probably sympathize if you're having a bad time, and I might offer words of comfort assuming you aren't being an ass. Also, I lied when I claimed I wouldn't say someone else is worse off. People are worse off. People have been worse off. If you think your petty problems, no matter how horrible they may seem to you, are products of God's hate, you have absolutely no perspective. Now, we'll go on to the select few who actually have had lives so horrific that they can only attribute it to divine grudges, rather than the aforementioned "I'm a drug addict and my boyfriend is moving away so God must hate me because I chose to do drugs and my boyfriend's family decided to move" folks. Your argument is valid to use if you're talking to someone who believes that God orchestrates every moment of our insignificant lives. If not, you're probably talking to someone who believes that the world operates by certain natural laws and probabilities that mean certain people are going to get the short end of the stick. In the latter case, this argument is similar to the "The bible says..." argument in that it means nothing to the person you're talking to. Conclusion: In most cases it is you that blows and no He doesn't, respectively. -- Posted by Shuichi at 2:42 am on June 4, 2006 If God Exists, Why Is There Death/Suffering Suffering is a rather unfortunate side-affect of your nervous system, and life has a 100% mortality rate. Deal with it. Anyway, my common answer is: You honestly expect God, should He exist, to intervene in every single person's life and fix all those problems? Heck, if I was God, I'd probably let that stuff happen. Mostly because I'd have perspective that spans the length and breadth of eternity and your suffering would be less than even the tiniest fraction of an eyeblink you could think of. Heaven is where it's at, folks. :p Conclusion: Because, you whiny asshole. -- Posted by Shuichi at 3:00 am on June 4, 2006 Welcome to the Religion and Philosophy forum. - from britishguy. This forum is a place where Livewire members can discuss issues in a community of people who share a variety of religious beliefs and perspectives. For the most part, members seem to consist of Christians (of all denominations) and ATheists, though there are certainly other members who represent Islam and agnosticism, as well as other major world religions and more individual religious beliefs. The purpose of this forum is twofold, as the title suggests: Religion and Philosophy. The forum is frequented by both athiests and theists, who will provide criticism of each other, so arguments and debate are to be expected, especially given the highly perosnal nature of many of the opinions expressed by both sides. Try to keep it respectful. Remember that theists are entitled to an opinion on and will comment on apparently atheistic topics and atheists will have opinions on, and will comment on apparently theistic issues. This forum is one of the most controversial in terms of the debates that occur. If you are offended by a comment made by another member then please raise the issue with them using the PM system in order to try and avoid the involvement of others. Please remember that you are not obliged either to read a topic or reply, and that if you find something offesive you can simply close your browser. Equally, this forum is not to become a place for unwarranted or malicious criticism of people whose beliefs differ from your own. Criticism is one thing, abuse is another. Again, try and resolve the matter via PM if you experience problems of this kind, or ask a moderator to speak to the person involved, and try to resolve the situation amicably. In general, expect to find both support and criticism throughout this forum. Be aware that it is subject to the same rules concerning language as the other boards and that swearing is neither completely prohibited nor tolerated in excess. If you really object then in a thread that you have created you can request that people refrain from using profanity. (Edited by Shuichi at 3:07 am on June 4, 2006) -- Posted by Prince o palities at 9:59 am on Aug. 6, 2007 Terms You Should Know Agnosticism - an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge; the belief that one is incapable of knowing whether or not there is a deity. Apocrypha - a group of 14 books, not considered canonical, included in the Septuagint and the Vulgate as part of the Old Testament, but usually omitted from Protestant editions of the Bible. Apologetics - the field of study concerned with the defense or proof of Christianity Atheism - the absence of a belief in god. Deontology - the ethical system which holds that morality is decided by a criteria or entity independent of the effect of the action. Dharma - in Hinduism and Buddhism, the principle of virtue which orders the entire universe. Catholic - an adherent to the Roman Catholic faith as represented by the Doctors of the Church, canon law, and the pope. Ethics - the prescriptive study of morality; the study of how we determine what is right and wrong. Evangelical or Evangelicalism - a subdivision of Christianity that typically refers to Christians who hold to the ultimate authority of scripture over church administration, the need for personal conversion, the need to impart Jesus into other by way of evangelism or social reform, and an emphasis on the work of Jesus on the cross as the means by which people are saved. Exegesis - critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text with respect to its literary, social, and historical context. Fundamentalist - strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles or, specific to Christianity, anyone adhering to the total infallibility of a strictly literal translation of the Bible. Gnosticism - a group of ancient heresies, stressing escape from this world through the acquisition of cryptic knowledge, responsible for the production of the so called "Gnostic gospels." Hadith - traditional account of things said or done by Muhammad or his companions or, if used plurally, the whole body of these accounts. Jihad - from the Arabic for struggle, it refers both to the Muslim's struggle for self perfection as well as a holy war or struggle against the infidels. Karma - in Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions, the cosmic principle where each person is rewarded or punished according to that person's deeds either in this life or a future incarnation. Nirvana - a state of perpetual freedom from pain, worry, and attachment entered into by Buddhists who have achieved enlightenment and broken the cycle of reincarnation. Pantheism - a religious or philosophical belief that equates god with the entirety of the universe represented in everything Philosophy - the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct. Polemics - the practice of theological argumentation to refute errors of doctrine. Protestant - any church which descended from a religious belief that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the Reformation. Pseudepigrapha - A body of texts written between 200 B.C. and A.D. 200 and falsely ascribed to various prophets and kings of Hebrew Scriptures. Reincarnation - the belief that a person's essence enters into and becomes another form upon their death and is then born again into a new incarnation. Religion - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe typically, but not universally, involving belief in the supernatural, ritualistic observances, and a specific ethical system to determine the morality of behavior. Sanctification - the process by which a person is made pure or holy according to the particular statutes of said person's religion. Shi'ite - a member of the branch of Islam that regards Ali and his descendants as the legitimate successors to Muhammad and rejects the first three caliphs. Spirituality - beliefs pertaining to the immaterial or spiritual aspects of the world. Sunni - a member of one of the two great religious divisions of Islam, regarding the first four caliphs as legitimate successors of Muhammad and stressing the importance of Sunna as a basis for law. Talmud - the collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority in Orthodox Judaism. Theology - the field of study that focuses on the nature and will of a particular deity. Torah - another name for the Pentateuch or first five books of the Jewish Bible or Christian Old Testament. Utilitarianism - the ethical system which holds that the moral action is determined by an evaluation of what is best for the greatest number of people.