Pages: 1 2 3  Next -- Posted by the raven at 12:38 am on Nov. 13, 2007 [I'm aiming for intelligent discussion/education here, if you don't want to read all of it, at least skim some of it, it's worth it.] Dogs are not omnivores, wolves do not eat the stomach contents of their prey, your pets will not get deadly parasites from human-grade raw meats, most commercial pet foods cause more health problems than they are claiming to fix, many vets are paid to sell certain pet foods and will tell you to buy them to increase their profits. I'm sure someone will try and refute. I'm prepared. As irked as I have been lately, I'm prepared for this, I know it. So, bring it on. Raw feeding, the right way. First, dogs (lets' focus on dogs, but this can all apply to cats as well) are not omnivores. Everything about their structure, their insides, right down to their teeth screams carnivore. So why do pet food companies litter their product wrapping with pictures of bright orange carrots and lovely green peas? Because you like to look at it, of course. The animal doesn't know what it's eating, it cannot read, it relies on you, so you target the consumer, and in this case, it's a reversal; you aren't eating it, it's eating your wallet. Yes, dogs are extremely adaptable, but feeding a carrot to a dog (or cat) doesn't make it's insides change, just like feeing a steak to an herbivore doesn't make it able to digest it. Simply put, dogs are not omnivores. It's a common misconception that dogs must be omnivores because 'wolves eat the stomach contents of their prey'. Not sure where that myth came from, but wolves shake loose those contents, because they are far too bitter and acidic. The nutrients they need (which, yes, are contained within vegetables) is gotten through the animal that ate them, in a way they cannot obtain them through eating them raw. And as far as science is concerned, dogs are not too unrelated to wolves to come to this conclusion. Second, no, your dog won't die from eating raw meat. Nor will it become vicious and attack you or your family (that's a really bad myth). Human-grade meat, the things you'd eat, are usually safe. If you'd eat them, with your low ability to fight off such horrid infections, you can't imagine how your dog's body reacts to them. We aren't built the same, so, do not expect the same sicknesses to put us down and be unable to be taken care of naturally. Freezing meat, if you're actually scared of it for whatever reason, can kill most bacteria, regardless of whether it is harmful or harmless. Cooking does more harm than good. It kills not only bacteria, but essential nutrients your pet needs. This can cause serious digestive issues, which many dogs on commercial diets already have. Also, if you're worried about your own health, just think of how mom cooked dinner. That should cancel out your worries. Just remember to clean up like you would any other time when handling raw meats. Third, possibly most important, most commercial pet food diets (Iams, Alpo, Purina, Pedigree, Science Diet, etc) are not nutritionally complete, and do more harm than good. Millions of dogs eat this kibble and wet food (which I'll get to later), and 85% of them have moderate to severe periodontal disease by the age of 3. Literally, their teeth are covered in plaque, and harmful bacteria causing harmful erosion to the gums and teeth themselves. Dogs, by myth, are supposed to have bad breath. It's just not true. That bad breath is the bacteria in their mouth. I have yet to meet a raw-fed dog with horrid breath. Unpleasant by our standards, yes, but in no means unbearable or forcing me to push it away. Dental chews and toys do little to alleviate said problems, and have as much harmful ingredients as the pet food they attempt to cancel out. Millions of dogs also have food allergies. They lose their fur, they chew at their feet, the push at their teeth with their paws, they develop harmful allergies to fleas, develop kidney, digestive, and bone problems, and people just keep finding more kibble in hopes of treating the problem, which is rather ironic given the information. Keep in mind, the pet food companies admit to these problems. They know, and make it clear, that these are very common. That's because they really can't hide it anymore. Kibble is a very new concept. One hundred years, and still in the making. Dogs fed on raw diets have note-worthy differences. Their skin and coat are improved, taking away the typical doggy odor that most people find offensive and foul. Their teeth are white and clean, and their gums are not irritated, dis-coloured, or bloody. Their stools are firm, small, and virtually odorless as opposed to large, runny piles that smell from yards away. Their energy is revitalized, appropriate to their age. Their overall immunity system is greatly improved, making it easier for them to fight off infections (meaning less vet visits and less money you spend). Fleas are rarely, if ever, a real issue. Heart, liver and kidney diseases are a much lower risk. Temperaments are greatly improved in moody dogs. Lifespans are increased by years, which is important for very large breeds with the shortest life expectancies, which often die much earlier than even that due to health problems in their breed. You simply do not get that with kibble. Of course, there are people who have had pets live fine on kibble. The difference is that they could be better, much much better. Regardless of if your pet seems healthy, there are most likely underlying issues that you brush off as being 'general for dogs' and 'inescapable', or try to treat with things that do nothing but act as a non-adhesive band-aid. Bones, uncooked are perfectly fine for dogs. Chicken bones included. They have a better chance of choking on the rawhide you bought them at the pet store. Giving them bones that are appropriate for their size will help aid in their teeth and gums becoming much healthier, shiny and clean, and help with the bad breath so many have. As a footnote, any breed, size not being an issue, can be fed raw. From the tiniest to the largest. They will also enjoy eating it much more, because dogs do have a natural prey instinct, and it is even perfectly fine to feed carcasses. http://www.threecheersrawrawraw.com/Dogs_004.jpg http://asquared.phanfare.com/show/external/233521/309562/13811612/file.jpg http://www.abbotsbourne.co.uk/images/gwppups2.JPG By the way, fish are also good, as long as it is the proper kind. Some websites to get you started: http://www.rawlearning.com/ http://www.justamere.com/newsletter/rawfeeding.asp http://rawfed.com/ http://www.bravorawdiet.com/ Edited to add: Always avoid raw pork and raw salmon. And remember, some dogs will have a strange odor the first couple of days, naturally they have to let their bodies get used to this natural diet. The change can happen very suddenly, or it may happen as soon as you start feeding. -- Posted by Clergyboy at 12:41 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Ok, I know then. I shall feed my dog with raw meat as long as I get one. -- Posted by Clouse227 at 12:41 am on Nov. 13, 2007 "vets are paid to sell certain pet foods and will tell you to buy them to increase their profits" I did not know that one. interesting, i feel lied to now. -- Posted by straypussy at 12:41 am on Nov. 13, 2007 That is FUCKING crazy! I didn't know half of tht. -- Posted by swheart57 at 12:41 am on Nov. 13, 2007 that was a novel..but interesting -- Posted by Graustein at 12:44 am on Nov. 13, 2007 I'm glad I feed my dog meat from the butcher then. -- Posted by rawrr at 12:44 am on Nov. 13, 2007 i fed my dog a lot of meat and i tried to avoid feeing him dog food, and he's 17 years old and still goin. -- Posted by the raven at 12:47 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from Clouse227 at 3:41 am on Nov. 13, 2007 "vets are paid to sell certain pet foods and will tell you to buy them to increase their profits" I did not know that one. interesting, i feel lied to now. Vets also are not nutritionists. The classes taken in nutrition are short, usually, and almost always led by an 'instructor' from a commercial pet food company. Luckily the vets I've managed to get have been the ones that went back and took separate, actual nutrition classes. It's not easy to find a good pet nutritionist who isn't funded by Hills. -- Posted by Vintorez at 12:47 am on Nov. 13, 2007 isn't it kinda expensive to put your pet on an all raw meat diet? -- Posted by Spice at 12:48 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from The Raven at 8:47 am on Nov. 13, 2007 It's not easy to find a good pet nutritionist who isn't funded by Hills. They are freaking expensive =| We feed our cat the dental stuff occasionally cos Roo gets dodgy gums =[ and a dodgy tummy =| bless him. -- Posted by Rastafarian at 12:48 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Very good post, I hope to keep this in mind for when I eventually get pets of my own. -- Posted by Energizer Bunny at 12:50 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Very interesting :D Thanks -- Posted by the raven at 12:50 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from Vintorez at 3:47 am on Nov. 13, 2007 isn't it kinda expensive to put your pet on an all raw meat diet? At first, but it is only as expensive as you make it. The money saved in vet visits, and switching kibble, and not to mention waste kibble, is noticeable very soon after starting. I assumed it would be expensive, and it can if you do not know what you are doing, but there are, luckily, plenty of companies and butchers around now who do not mind you buying in bulk, and storing it can save trips too. -- Posted by Rastafarian at 12:56 am on Nov. 13, 2007 So as to be cost-effective what would you suggest the average size portion for an average sized dog be? I know that there are a lot of dogs out there that will just gorge themselves on kibble. I'm wondering if it could or is the same with raw food, or does it have any corrolation? -- Posted by the raven at 1:00 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from Rastafarian at 3:56 am on Nov. 13, 2007 So as to be cost-effective what would you suggest the average size portion for an average sized dog be?   I know that there are a lot of dogs out there that will just gorge themselves on kibble. I'm wondering if it could or is the same with raw food, or does it have any corrolation?   Dogs will naturally gorge, which is why so many pets are overweight (people to free-feeding all too much). An average sized dog (around 50-60 pounds I'll say, give or take) can eat happily about a pound of raw a day. They will eat like they are starving at first, and that can cause problems. If you feed them in a very shallow dish, it will help stop that. A dog can only eat as far as his muzzle goes. Cats are a little trickier, with their damned flat faces. Oh, and no raw pork or raw salmon. -- Posted by shadowpool at 1:03 am on Nov. 13, 2007 I'm wondering about the nutrition content in most meats sold today.  Do food animals, farmed in the modern way, have the nutritional content that a wolf might experience after hunting down fresh, natural prey?  I'm betting those farmed animals aren't fed nutritionally complete meals. Not that the kibble is any better for dogs.  :( -- Posted by Vintorez at 1:04 am on Nov. 13, 2007 what's wrong with salmon? -- Posted by the raven at 1:08 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from shadowpool at 4:03 am on Nov. 13, 2007 I'm wondering about the nutrition content in most meats sold today.  Do food animals, farmed in the modern way, have the nutritional content that a wolf might experience after hunting down fresh, natural prey?  I'm betting those farmed animals aren't fed nutritionally complete meals. Not that the kibble is any better for dogs.  :( That's a personal thing, really. A lot of people worry about that, but most dogs are fed from what you can buy at the butcher or grocery store and have the same results. The kibble is, as you said, not any better. Worse, really. I know a few people who rely on their own hunting to feed their dogs, but they have the time and energy for that, and a place to put  the dead bodies of deer, bears, rabbits, etc, or they use their own farm animals (this is what my aunt does). It'd probably be far too expensive to go into feeding organic meat. As far as what is wrong with salmon, it's the potential of liver fluke. It's like delivering alcohol directly to their liver, can completely destroy it in a short amount of time. Cooked, though, is fine. There's a short list of fish that cannot be fed, but most people just use fish oil, that I know of. -- Posted by Graustein at 1:15 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from Vintorez at 8:04 pm on Nov. 13, 2007 what's wrong with salmon? Lots and lots of tiny little bones. And I believe fish goes off quite easily (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Posted by IronJew at 1:21 am on Nov. 13, 2007 naw. imma eat my meat. my dog can have his kibbles an bits. -- Posted by the raven at 1:22 am on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from Troop at 4:21 am on Nov. 13, 2007 naw. imma eat my meat. my dog can have his kibbles an bits. Well that's lovely. And it kills him slowly. Good luck. -- Posted by OverTheAir at 2:57 pm on Nov. 13, 2007 So even if your dog has been on regular dog food for lets about 5 years or so, they can switch diets with no problems? Also if you bought this up to a vet do you think they would shoot the idea down? -- Posted by allsmiles at 3:14 pm on Nov. 13, 2007 o_O How could anyone not think that feeding a dog meat is okay? They're very clearly designed for it, you only need to take one look at them to see that. -- Posted by the raven at 5:50 pm on Nov. 13, 2007 Quote: from OverTheAir at 5:57 pm on Nov. 13, 2007 So even if your dog has been on regular dog food for lets about 5 years or so, they can switch diets with no problems? Also if you bought this up to a vet do you think they would shoot the idea down? There's often a transitional period. Some dogs do fine being switched cold turkey, but they are the ones with the best immune systems and no digestive issues. Many dogs need a gradual switch, but never feed kibble and raw at the same time. They digest at different rates and can back up the dog. As far as the vet, if they disagree, or try to keep selling you their pet food, either ignore it, or find a new one. Many claims that vets have made have been shot down, most being the parasite myths. They have little to say about the breeders that have been eating raw for 50+ years and have dogs living upwards of 20 years old, from what I have seen. But even they fully agree that most commercial diets cause periodontal disease and digestive problems. -- Posted by jessica20110 at 7:03 pm on Nov. 13, 2007 Wow, thanks a LOT for posting this! Really good information! -- Posted by carbonara at 4:30 am on Nov. 14, 2007 I found the whole thing a little hard to read to be honest. Be that because I'm half asleep or whatever. But i feel inclined to disagree. Personally i would not switch my dogs diet to a whole raw meat diet. Thats purely because he's 13 years old, his diet consists of tinned dog food and any leftovers of meat we have and he's been ill on one occasion i can remember. I just would not switch his diet now because it hasn't done him any harm. As far as would i put a new pet dog on a raw meat diet, i still think no. I just couldn't imagine giving a domesticated animal portions of raw meat. You make some very good points about it being good for them and what have you but i just don't see it. -- Posted by the raven at 9:26 am on Nov. 14, 2007 Quote: from carbonara at 7:30 am on Nov. 14, 2007 I found the whole thing a little hard to read to be honest. Be that because I'm half asleep or whatever. But i feel inclined to disagree. Personally i would not switch my dogs diet to a whole raw meat diet. Thats purely because he's 13 years old, his diet consists of tinned dog food and any leftovers of meat we have and he's been ill on one occasion i can remember. I just would not switch his diet now because it hasn't done him any harm. As far as would i put a new pet dog on a raw meat diet, i still think no. I just couldn't imagine giving a domesticated animal portions of raw meat. You make some very good points about it being good for them and what have you but i just don't see it. What exactly about it do you not like? IT is the diet they are designed for. Tinned dog foods (wet) ruin teeth and gums quicker than kibbles. And like I said, most of the problems you notice, you brush off as being 'normal', when they are not. As I said, many dogs do 'fine' on commercial dog food, but they could be ten times better. Many kibble feeders figure that out after switching. -- Posted by breakapart at 7:48 pm on Nov. 15, 2007 I'm curious... whats your source saying that dogs are carnivores?  The reason I ask is that my Clinical Medicine book clearly states that they are omnivores.   Also, a raw-meat diet is not the best choice for every dog and the decision to go raw should be made on a case by case basis, or done when the dog is a pup.   Though they wont splinter or break like cooked bones, even uncooked bones can be harmful for dogs, .  Rather than possibly tear your dogs GI apart, just dont give the bones. Last thing- vets dont just take short nutrition classes given by a commercial food rep.  They do have take nutrition to complete a vet med degree.  Obviously I dont know what they are being taught in the college courses, but the way you put it makes it sound as if vets just know nothing about nutrition, nor are ever educated about the subject, but they are as part of their veterinary course work. -- Posted by the raven at 5:37 am on Nov. 16, 2007 Quote: from breakapart at 10:48 pm on Nov. 15, 2007 I'm curious... whats your source saying that dogs are carnivores?  The reason I ask is that my Clinical Medicine book clearly states that they are omnivores.     Also, a raw-meat diet is not the best choice for every dog and the decision to go raw should be made on a case by case basis, or done when the dog is a pup.     Though they wont splinter or break like cooked bones, even uncooked bones can be harmful for dogs, .  Rather than possibly tear your dogs GI apart, just dont give the bones.   Last thing- vets dont just take short nutrition classes given by a commercial food rep.  They do have take nutrition to complete a vet med degree.  Obviously I dont know what they are being taught in the college courses, but the way you put it makes it sound as if vets just know nothing about nutrition, nor are ever educated about the subject, but they are as part of their veterinary course work. There is little debate about whether are not dogs are carnivores. I've never seen anyone with any background in them call them omnivores, even those who feed veggies and fruits. They just seem to like them. Domestic dogs being true omnivores remains to be proven, but their dental and digestive make-up says otherwise. Cats on the other hand, no question, they are obligate carnivores. As far as bones, as I said, large bones appropriate for your dogs size. I don't know anyone who's had problems with bones, because they feed them properly. They also know which bones to feed, and it's not that hard to learn. I've never had a dog choke on a bone, but I have had several get rawhide and small toys lodged in their throat (I just pulled a rawhide slab from the Pomeranian's throat two nights ago, actually). The diet doesn't need to be started from puppyhood usually, I've only known of a handful of dogs that didn't take to the diet, and that was because they were switched too quickly, they had already had underlying issues that the commercial diet had caused. As far as the vet class, by short, I mean their nutrition classes are nowhere near comparable to someone who is specializing in it. When a vet tells me my dog can digest corn meal perfectly fine (and most of them have) I can pretty much tell from there that Hill's told them to say that. The vets I know and talked to about becoming a veterinarian even fully answe3red my question when I asked about those classes, and not one said they weren't taught by a representative from a pet food company. How much could they possibly know? A class in nutrition is worthless if you're getting it from a company who admits defeat. ETA: If people are still worried about bones, they can be ground. Many people use grinders to help save space in their freezers for this diet, and bones are no exception, but will take a little more work. -- Posted by ATTI at 3:17 pm on Nov. 16, 2007 Wow, I am doing something right! Excellent post. I've always fed my dog raw - a bit different, but same basic idea. Pages: 1 2 3  Next