-- Posted by bend at 2:49 am on May 6, 2008 well i will turn what i think of charles darwin 180 degrees and say he's a wise man.. let's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang? haven't we humans gone far enough to know that in chemistry, you can't make something happen outta nothing.. so if the big bang was caused by some gases that JUST happened to be there or whatever and the earth was created and bla bla bla.. what brought about the elements that those gases were made out of then? let's jump from there to darwin.. some cells(living things) forming out of non-leaving things and then evolving into a more advanced life form then into another then into another... till we here are formed right.. don't you think there are toooooooooooooooooo many chances that are very very very very unlikely to happen involved here...it's like an a very black african turning white, and then becoming the king of USA, and then winning a billion dollars in a small casino in ethiopia... the chance is 0,0000% but then we jump to religions and they offer logical answers to how everything came to being.. i might be crazy but i think the old religions are made up of the truth.. even if corrupt humans of today have corrupted it -- Posted by snowcone200 at 2:51 am on May 6, 2008 Well I think the big bang is a theory in itself that isn't trying to explain what was before the universe just how it was created. -- Posted by snowcone200 at 2:58 am on May 6, 2008 "even if corrupt humans of today have corrupted it" You need to have a open mind when asking questions and discussing stuff like this. Whats the point of having debates and discussions if your gonna have a biased opinion straight off the bat. -- Posted by Graustein at 2:58 am on May 6, 2008 Well, the first question can be countered by asking where God came from. For the second one, evolution says nothing about where life came from, as has been repeated several hundred times in the R&P forum in the past week, so failed assertion there. Next bit: Well I argue that evolution is an inevitable product of life. Where there are mutations there will be evolution. Most mutations are bad but a few are good and give the mutants a slight edge, so they eventually outcompete their competitors, who may die off or evolve in a different direction. This is compounded over a couple billion years. On chances: You can't say something's impossible just because the chance is very low. Take, for example, a game of cards. If someone gets a perfect hand three times in a row, the odds are amazingly low of that happening, aren't they? But if it did happen, then it would be bloody stupid to try to deny it. Now the card game is actually a bad analogy because of the possibility of cheating, but it was the one that most readily sprung to mind. -- Posted by bend at 3:02 am on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Graustein at 11:58 am on May 6, 2008 Well, the first question can be countered by asking where God came from. For the second one, evolution says nothing about where life came from, as has been repeated several hundred times in the R&P forum in the past week, so failed assertion there. Next bit: Well I argue that evolution is an inevitable product of life. Where there are mutations there will be evolution. Most mutations are bad but a few are good and give the mutants a slight edge, so they eventually outcompete their competitors, who may die off or evolve in a different direction. This is compounded over a couple billion years.   On chances: You can't say something's impossible just because the chance is very low. Take, for example, a game of cards. If someone gets a perfect hand three times in a row, the odds are amazingly low of that happening, aren't they? But if it did happen, then it would be bloody stupid to try to deny it. Now the card game is actually a bad analogy because of the possibility of cheating, but it was the one that most readily sprung to mind. you are forgetting one thing there.. people that believe in the evolution theory believe in what i stated.. -- Posted by Graustein at 3:04 am on May 6, 2008 Sorry, believe which thing that you stated? You stated rather a lot. -- Posted by Moridin at 8:17 am on May 6, 2008 Oh boy. 1. http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309064066&page=2 A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses, not a random guess. This goes both for the theory of evolution and the Big Bang Theory, as well as the atomic theory of matter, quantum theory and the theory of relativity. 2. The question "What was before the Big Bang" makes no sense to ask. Since no time earlier than the Planck time can be logically defined, the whole notion of time before the big bang is meaningless. Asking it makes as much sense as asking what is north of the north pole. 3. "There are something like ten million million million million million million million million million million million million million million (1 with eighty zeros after it) particles in the region of the universe that we can observe. Where did they all come from? The answer is that, in quantum theory, particles can be created out of energy in the form of particle/antiparticle parts. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero. Now twice zero is also zero. Thus the universe can double the amount of positive matter energy and also double the negative gravitational energy without violation of the conservation of energy. (Hawking, Stephen, "Brief History of Time", 1998, pp. 133-134) 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System 6. Evolution (explaination for the diversity of life) is not the same as abiogenesis (explanation for the origin of life), which is not the same spontaneous generation. How likely is it that even a single bacterium could form by chance in the primordial sea? Not very likely, that's for sure, and creationists have been only too happy to provide ludicrously huge numbers purporting to be the odds against such a thing. However, even if these calculations are correct, they are irrelevant, as modern theories of abiogenesis require nothing of the kind to happen. This article briefly illustrates what abiogenesis really is and shows why the creationists' probability calculations do not matter.   http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html Actually, the probability you stated is actually the probability for creationism. The origin of life was not by random chance, and no one is saying it is. 7. No, the claim that "but then we jump to religions and they offer logical answers to how everything came to being" is most probably false. 8. Evolution explains the diversity of life. It is not about abiogenesis, or cosmology, or planetary formation, or nuclear synthesis. -- Posted by Wilder at 11:23 am on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something. You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like: et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang? On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place? -- Posted by Moridin at 1:56 pm on May 6, 2008 Wilder, the 7th point was only a specific rebuttal to the claim that " but then we jump to religions and they offer logical answers to how everything came to being" that was asserted in the OP. -- Posted by Wilder at 2:19 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Moridin at 2:56 pm on May 6, 2008 Wilder, the 7th point was only a specific rebuttal to the claim that " but then we jump to religions and they offer logical answers to how everything came to being" that was asserted in the OP. In that context I fully endorse your post. -- Posted by Moridin at 2:35 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 12:19 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from Moridin at 2:56 pm on May 6, 2008 Wilder, the 7th point was only a specific rebuttal to the claim that " but then we jump to religions and they offer logical answers to how everything came to being" that was asserted in the OP. In that context I fully endorse your post. I've edited 7. to better reflect the situation. -- Posted by bend at 3:08 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something. You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like: et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang? On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place? simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve? -- Posted by Moridin at 3:09 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from bend at 1:08 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.    You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:     et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?    On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?   simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve? What is a "God"? It seems to be a meaningless concept. Also, "Adam" and "Eve" never existed. -- Posted by bend at 3:16 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Moridin at 12:09 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from bend at 1:08 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.     You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:     et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?     On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?        simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve? What is a "God"? It seems to be a meaningless concept. Also, "Adam" and "Eve" never existed. now you are just being close minded.. what makes you think they never existed? -- Posted by obvious child at 4:10 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from bend at 12:16 pm on May 6, 2008 now you are just being close minded.. what makes you think they never existed? Several reasons. One, the problem of generations of incest compounding would have resulted in a singular diease killing everyone. Second, there is no evidence for humans just popping out of nowhere. We have evidence for humans evolving as a species out of another species. That means more then just two humans, which deals with the problem of genetic compounding of flaws. Third, Adam and Eve in a literal genesis context requires the rest of Literal genesis. Literal Genesis is either absolute bullshit or requires God to be a massive liar. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 4:16 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from bend at 6:08 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.    You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:     et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?    On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?   simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve? That's not what he was asking. He was saying, "Judging by the fact that you spell 'before' as 'b4,' how the fuck did you manage to pass the test that is required for you to enter this forum?" -- Posted by Wilder at 4:18 pm on May 6, 2008 now you are just being close minded.. what makes you think they never existed? Are you sure that you aren't the one being close minded? Why don't you believe that when the warm air of Muspelheim hit the cold ice of Niflheim, the giant Ymir and the icy cow Audhumla were created, and that's how creation got rolling? Or we could go Egyptian: Atum arose from the primordial waters (Neith), and masturbated to relieve his loneliness. His semen and breath became Tefnut (moisture) and Shu (dryness), respectively. From Shu and Tefnut, were born Geb (earth), and Nut (sky), who were born in a state of permanent copulation. Shu separated them, and their children were Ausare (Osiris; death), Set (desert), Aset (Isis; life), and Nebet Het (Nephthys; fertile land). Osiris and Isis were a couple, as were Nepthys and Set. -edit- That's not what he was asking. He was saying, "Judging by the fact that you spell 'before' as 'b4,' how the fuck did you manage to pass the test that is required for you to enter this forum?" -- Posted by obvious child at 4:19 pm on May 6, 2008 On top of Wilder... The TRUE religion is that described in Enuma Elish. A polytheistic belief system http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm -- Posted by Wilder at 4:21 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from obvious child at 5:19 pm on May 6, 2008 On top of Wilder...   The TRUE religion is that described in Enuma Elish. A polytheistic belief system   http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm Pff. This one is even truer. -- Posted by obvious child at 4:29 pm on May 6, 2008 Not even Wilder. http://server1.fandm.edu/departments/Anthropology/Bastian/ANT269/Yrelig.html Total Domination. -- Posted by MattJ at 4:39 pm on May 6, 2008 How the fuck is religion a logical explanation? Do you have proof of a god? -- Posted by Moridin at 5:11 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from obvious child at 2:29 am on May 7, 2008 Not even Wilder.   http://server1.fandm.edu/departments/Anthropology/Bastian/ANT269/Yrelig.html   Total Domination. That's nothing. The materialist prophet Epicurus (PBUH) predicted the existence of atoms, molecules, the law of inertia, the rain cycle, photons, that the speed of light is finite, the existence of other planets, theory of relativity, brownian motion, that the universe did not have a center, and quantum mechanics over 2000+ years ago. http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=362 ALL HAIL EPICURUS (PBUH) -- Posted by Moridin at 5:13 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from bend at 1:16 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from Moridin at 12:09 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from bend at 1:08 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.        You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:         et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?        On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?           simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve?    What is a "God"? It seems to be a meaningless concept. Also, "Adam" and "Eve" never existed. now you are just being close minded.. what makes you think they never existed? Because speciation is gradual, or gradual enough, so it makes no sense to speak of the "first" human. -- Posted by bend at 12:39 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 1:16 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from bend at 6:08 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.     You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:     et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?     On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?        simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve? That's not what he was asking. He was saying, "Judging by the fact that you spell 'before' as 'b4,' how the fuck did you manage to pass the test that is required for you to enter this forum?" ooh because i am smart enough to type b4 something that you understand and something that costs much less energy to type -- Posted by obvious child at 12:40 am on May 7, 2008 Sure you are Bend. Sure you are. Keep telling yourself that. -- Posted by exceedinglyrare at 5:09 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from bend at 3:39 am on May 7, 2008 ooh because i am smart enough to type b4 something that you understand and something that costs much less energy to type How much energy can typing four letters take? -- Posted by Wilder at 7:24 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from bend at 1:39 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from exceedinglyrare at 1:16 am on May 7, 2008 Quote: from bend at 6:08 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.        You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:         et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?        On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?           simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve?    That's not what he was asking. He was saying, "Judging by the fact that you spell 'before' as 'b4,' how the fuck did you manage to pass the test that is required for you to enter this forum?" ooh because i am smart enough to type b4 something that you understand and something that costs much less energy to type The implication of having to take an English test before being allowed to post here is that you are expected to adhere to a higher level of grammar than a dyslexic hyena shitting all over your keyboard. -- Posted by Wakeupcall at 10:58 am on May 9, 2008 Quote: from bend at 3:08 pm on May 6, 2008 Quote: from Wilder at 8:23 pm on May 6, 2008 I disagree with Moridin's seventh point, but past that I think his post is likely to be the best response this thread will see. As such, I won't try to tackle the disgusting web of logical failures that the OP presents. Instead, I would just like to note something.    You had to pass a test on grammar to get into this forum. What does that tell you about posting bullshit like:     et's start from the big bang.. what was there b4 the big bang.. and what created what was there b4 the big bang?    On second thought, how the fuck did you get in here in the first place?   simple.. God made us.. remember Adam and Eve? He was asking a completely different question there... you make no sense...