-- Posted by MattJ at 7:16 pm on May 11, 2008 There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice. So is water melted ice? Or is ice frozen water? -- Posted by TheOtherHorseman at 7:46 pm on May 11, 2008 They are both natural forms of dihydrogen monoxide. -- Posted by the raven at 8:06 pm on May 11, 2008 I'll go ahead and say water is melted ice, from the viewpoint of ice originally coming to Earth in the form of comet material. If that is in fact how it happened. -- Posted by Spasty at 8:55 pm on May 11, 2008 Water is H2O in the liquid state. Ice is H2O in the solid state. -- Posted by Bacon at 1:24 am on May 12, 2008 Unless you've done an extensive tally on the amount of solidified H2O in the universe compared to liquid and gas, I don't think you are entitled to say anything on this matter. -- Posted by Moridin at 6:00 am on May 12, 2008 Quote: from MattJ at 5:16 am on May 12, 2008 There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice. So is water melted ice? Or is ice frozen water? There is no such thing as cold or heat, just different velocities of particles and our descriptions of them. There is no such thing as a most "natural form" of H2O. "Liquid Water" / "Ice" do not exists as entities in themselves, but as noted earlier different manifestation and configurations of the same basic molecule. -- Posted by norock at 11:26 am on May 12, 2008 Quote: from Moridin at 9:00 am on May 12, 2008 Quote: from MattJ at 5:16 am on May 12, 2008 There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice.    So is water melted ice?    Or is ice frozen water? There is no such thing as cold or heat, just different velocities of particles and our descriptions of them. There is no such thing as a most "natural form" of H2O. "Liquid Water" / "Ice" do not exists as entities in themselves, but as noted earlier different manifestation and configurations of the same basic molecule. you have a habit of doing this moridin. there IS such a thing as cold and heat. though, as you describe it, cold is the result of slow moving particles and heat is the result of fast moving particles. the terms COLD and HEAT refer to these different states of molecules. to say they don't exist is like saying "air" doesn't exist, its just a collection of molecules. You must learn the difference between terms and the physical phenomena they represent. Your second point, however, i agree with. there definitely is no NATURAL form for H2O. If you wanted to you could theoretically measure the amount of H2O in the atmosphere and compare it to that of the ocean and that of the polar caps and determine the most ABUNDANT form, but certainly no one could argue that water has X as its natural state. the third point i disagree with again. Liquid water may not exist as a physical state of matter, but it surely exists. the TERM liquid refers to that state of matter in which the molecules act a certain way to give them properties of a liquid. This semantic way of discussing scientific phenomena of yours is really just pseudo-intellectualism. Sure the WORD liquid may not be a physical entity, but LIQUID --the actual physical representation of the word -- does exist. -- Posted by JeremyM at 11:36 am on May 13, 2008 Simply put; both and/or neither. Water is the liquid form of H2O. Whereas ice is the solid form of H2O. -- Posted by Wakeupcall at 4:53 pm on May 14, 2008 Quote: from norock at 11:26 am on May 12, 2008 Quote: from Moridin at 9:00 am on May 12, 2008 Quote: from MattJ at 5:16 am on May 12, 2008 There is no cold, just lack of heat. So is the natural form of H2O water, or ice? In the universe, most places would be ice. In less than 1 percent of the universe there would be the water form. I'm not saying that there is water out there, just if there was water, the natural form would be ice.   So is water melted ice?   Or is ice frozen water?    There is no such thing as cold or heat, just different velocities of particles and our descriptions of them. There is no such thing as a most "natural form" of H2O. "Liquid Water" / "Ice" do not exists as entities in themselves, but as noted earlier different manifestation and configurations of the same basic molecule. you have a habit of doing this moridin. there IS such a thing as cold and heat. though, as you describe it, cold is the result of slow moving particles and heat is the result of fast moving particles.   the terms COLD and HEAT refer to these different states of molecules. to say they don't exist is like saying "air" doesn't exist, its just a collection of molecules.   You must learn the difference between terms and the physical phenomena they represent. Your second point, however, i agree with. there definitely is no NATURAL form for H2O. If you wanted to you could theoretically measure the amount of H2O in the atmosphere and compare it to that of the ocean and that of the polar caps and determine the most ABUNDANT form, but certainly no one could argue that water has X as its natural state. the third point i disagree with again. Liquid water may not exist as a physical state of matter, but it surely exists. the TERM liquid refers to that state of matter in which the molecules act a certain way to give them properties of a liquid.   This semantic way of discussing scientific phenomena of yours is really just pseudo-intellectualism. Sure the WORD liquid may not be a physical entity, but LIQUID --the actual physical representation of the word -- does exist. I second this. From an intellectual standpoint of course. -- Posted by Periwinkle at 10:20 am on May 15, 2008 If I had to choose one, I'd say ice is frozen water because H20 is liquid at room temperature. -- Posted by camcool21 at 3:52 pm on May 22, 2008 I would say as a human being that ice is frozen water, because water is vital for our survival.  As a species water is vital, therefore we have a far more personal connection with it compared to ice.  While ice is quite useful for shin splints and cooling beverages, it is not even close to as necessary as water (unless melted...because then it is...but stop heating it after you melt it...because then it's gas...) -- Posted by halfinsane at 4:41 pm on May 22, 2008 Well, the argument is mute from a chemistry/physics/scientific standpoint, they are the same compound with molecules moving at different velocities. So the debate should then be a philosophical one. But scientific terms should still be involved. Cold is merely the absence of heat. So, what is water's naked form? Technically, having no heat is impossible, but ignoring that (for purposes of this argument), ice would be the natural form. But it isn't really that simple. I think we have to define what natural is. Is natural implicit of naked or without anything else? Is natural the most common form, or the most familiar form to humanity? The answer changes based on what we consider 'natural'. 'Natural' is a relative term, so without defining it, there is no definite  answer to the question. -- Posted by matto at 11:34 pm on June 4, 2008 Quote: from Spasty at 8:55 pm on May 11, 2008 Water is H2O in the liquid state. Ice is H2O in the solid state. /agree... There is no "natural" form of H2O.  It's all relative to the surroundings where it is.  On EARTH, the natural form is water.  In the UNIVERSE, it's probably ice, but how the hell should I know?  That's pure speculation.  There could be a hot planet with a water vapor atmosphere.  I've read about a planet that possibly had water on it, but the massive strength of the gravitational pull crystalized the would-be water into an ice-like material.  What's that count as? -- Posted by Apotheosis at 10:17 am on June 5, 2008 being a human being on earth, i tend to consider most/all things to have their natural state at earth's room temperature, approximately. so i call water water, not melted ice. -- Posted by marshmellowman at 10:22 am on June 5, 2008 At 298K, in the current everyday life, I'd call water water, and ice frozen water. But like people have said it's all relative to the temperature that we are talking about. That's why refer to the solid form as ice and the liquid form as water. -- Posted by Disposition at 11:27 am on June 5, 2008 Between them, if I have to decide... I'd say ice is frozen water, but that's only because I think of liquid water as such a basic neutral state. I think of water forming into ice. Obviously, it's both though.